Abortions.

^ Hey, don't leave. Just try and consider what we're all saying, and give your opinion based on facts. We're all still learning here.

Wait I think she understand what she was trying to say. She was saying women can better relate and help each other better than a man could. Such as with periods, if you were to get a period and really not feeling well and needed some help or whatever and told another female it was because you were on your period she'd be better able to understand than a man who doesnt have to put up with periods.

^ Quite possibly. But many women /can't/ empathize with what women go through during an abortion, myself included. Just like the men, we can only sympathize.
But does this mean that only women who have been pregnant should be involved with the legality/an individual's choice of abortion?
Or should people (mothers included!) not be involved at all?

My Dear Delirious:

Wait I think she understand what she was trying to say. She was saying women can better relate and help each other better than a man could. Such as with periods, if you were to get a period and really not feeling well and needed some help or whatever and told another female it was because you were on your period she'd be better able to understand than a man who doesnt have to put up with periods.

Thank you! That is what I was trying to say.

questionable content:

^ Hey, don't leave. Just try and consider what we're all saying, and give your opinion based on facts. We're all still learning here.

The reason why I left / am leaving is because I cannot explain myself properly.

questionable content:

^ Quite possibly. But many women /can't/ empathize with what women go through during an abortion, myself included. Just like the men, we can only sympathize.
But does this mean that only women who have been pregnant should be involved with the legality/an individual's choice of abortion?
Or should people (mothers included!) not be involved at all?

No, all women should. Because it's a woman's choice, and just because a woman cannot reproduce doesn't mean she's not a woman. And a man shouldn't decide because he's not a woman, otherwise it would be a man's choice, which wouldn't be fair.

^ Being infertile does not make you any less of a woman, but by definition, infertile women cannot reproduce, and abortion is a woman's reproductive choice.
Being infertile (and to a lesser degree, abstinent) causes the choice of abortion to be less personal, and because those women are not personally (as in their bodies) affected by it, I don't see why they should have any more influence than a man does on abortion.

Wait, Emilie Autumn, you really don't have to go. In these situations it's hard to always make it so others can understand, and when I was younger I always came on here and tried to voice my opinion. At the time I didn't know much about the subjects most of the time, I had horrible grammar, but people still helped explain to me and I learned. It's all about learning others point of views to better understand a topic.

And Questionable Content, it's a yes and no thing. I believe guys and other women who maybe can or cannot have children can understand a women considering abortion. We've all been in the situation where we're scared, we didn't know what to do and were just over all overwhelmed. In most arguments about abortion, people usually bring up teenage girls and how the don't actually know what to properly do about her unwanted pregnancy. I believe one reason why people who choose abstinence can be very judge mental and condescending towards a young women who gets pregnant is because it's completely opposite from what they do. It can get hard to be abstinent, but they still persevere cause that's what they believe and for someone else who doesn't and "sleeps around" they should have to suffer. I think that's why alot of especially Christian women are against abortion, since they believe you get what you deserve for not listening to what their god said.

Now personally, I don't believe that's right. I don't believe you should hold your own religion and views over someones head who may be in a pickle. And I don't believe your own views should dictate someone else's life.

My Dear Delirious:

Now personally, I don't believe that's right. I don't believe you should hold your own religion and views over someones head who may be in a pickle. And I don't believe your own views should dictate someone else's life.

I totally agree with you. I mean, I'm a Christian, and I'm pro-choice, one reason being I don't think I should be shoving my religion done everybody's throats. Religion should stay out of the government for the most part.

Emilie Autumn.:

I totally agree with you. I mean, I'm a Christian, and I'm pro-choice, one reason being I don't think I should be shoving my religion done everybody's throats. Religion should stay out of the government 100%, completely and utterly, because many people believe many things and no one has the right to enforce anything based on some fables from a centuries-old book written by power-hungry men, also people can have morals without religion, but we all know that!

There, fixed that for you.

merlin.:

There, fixed that for you.

Please don't add stuff to my posts. Thank you.

And also, I think the only thing about religion that needs to stay is saying God in the pledge of alligence and what not, because this country was basically founded by the belief in God. But I believe people can have different religions, and laws shouldn't be based on religion.

Whoa, okay, this thread is getting sorta heated, everyone please be nice to each other! ^_^ also please don't let the thread stray! Thank you!

merlin.:

Adding stuff to your posts would be for me to hit the "edit" button that I have as an admin and add it that way. I didn't do so; I changed something in a quote. I guess you haven't seen that it's a common thing to do around the web.

Also, you're way uneducated in the Constitution and the Founding Fathers, but keep listening to right-wing drivel and enjoy! And I plan to continue modding quotes to make a point anytime I like, and I urge other users to do the same. God, it's just text.

Oh, well I'm sorry. It just irritates me when someone adds stuff to my posts when they quote me. And I know that admins/mods have that option. I meant in a quote. Jesus.

Yes they were Christian. Yes a lot of the things about America were formed around the belief in God. "In God We Trust" is on the dollar bill, "One nation under God" in our pledge of alligence, the US Supreme Court building has Moses holding the Ten Commandments on the front and they're engraved on one of the front doors, Bible verses are etched into monuments in Washington DC, and there's a ton more.

And I'm not right winged. Yes, my parents are, but I'm not. I'm independent.

LUST:

Whoa, okay, this thread is getting sorta heated, everyone please be nice to each other! ^_^ also please don't let the thread stray! Thank you!

Sorry, I know this post is basically spam, I just felt I had the need to defend myself.

merlin.:

Clearly, though, you are "independent" leaning to the right. With all the hate and totally twisted rhetoric being spewed from the right these days, I am not exactly inclined to let it slide when a more centrally-located being on the political spectrum, such as yourself, is yanked the way of ignorance by more powerful figures.

How do you know I'm leaning towards the right? Being Christian isn't the only thing that being a republican is. The only thing you know about me is my religion and the fact I'm Pro-Choice, which is more popular amongst democrats.

merlin:

Your logic is sort of like saying if you open a bookstore in a racially- and culturally-diverse neighborhood, and you're the only bookstore allowed there, and you just happen to BE a Christian, that everything in your bookstore has to be Christian-oriented (minus the ramifications for businesses who do this sort of thing; it's for the sake of analogy). Except, heh, no one is forced to shop at your bookstore, whereas everyone who was born here (who can;'t decide where they're born) and doesn't have the resources to leave their RELIGIOUSLY OPPRESSIVE government, is forced to live under Christian Law. And, no, I am NOT pledging to anything that I do not believe in - it's crap.

I'm saying the laws must be Christian, I'm just saying the older stuff, when this country was founded, should stay the same. I don't think any laws that have been made should not have anything to do with religion. Except, of course, being able to choose your religion.

merlin.:

Having God in the pledge is offensive and grossly inconsiderate to those who do not follow the Christian God. Having laws in place simply because they are the Christian Way, not based on morals alone, is wrong because it forces those who do not live under the word of the Bible to LIVE UNDER ITS WORD.

As I've said before, I don't want laws to be based on religion. Just the stuff that was there when this country was founded. I don't think, "oh, well, abortion should be made illigal because God wants her to have that child." No, that's an opinion, and I disagree with that, even though it's the supposed "Christian way." And no, there are quite a few muslims, hindi, buddhists, etc that I know that don't really care that it says God in the pledge. And it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be the Christian God. God is basically universal...

merlin.:

The Founding Fathers were religious, YES. But the whole reason they were here in the first place is because their home country was forcing people to live under its religious laws, and they believed in FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Re-read the Constitution. Just because people have twisted the way our money is printed and what statues we put in place doesn't change jack-all about their intentions; it just means that people who don't give a damn about others' rights decided to turn a blind eye. You may have the advantage of large numbers, but it's still ignorant and oppressive.

I believe in Freedom of Religion, too, dammit. I never said anyone MUST be Christian. I just SAID that the pledge, the stuff on the buildings, should stay that way. Not the laws or any other shit. They mustn't have anything to do with religion.

^ I think again she wasn't very clear earlier in what she was saying and she didn't really know how to understand how to properly explain her views.

I think what's she's trying to get at is that this may be a country founded on "freedom of religion" yet Christianity is very dominate in our culture. Especially when it comes to certain debates such as homosexuality and abortion. When people argue against those two arguments they almost always drag the Christian bible into it. I love to debate, but I've never been in a debate about either of these subjects and someone brought in another religion other than Christianity. In our country Christianity is pretty dominate, we have a Religious belt of the United States that is very much devoted to Christianity. I always think it's funny whenever people start going on how Obama might be Muslim thus he shouldn't be our leader, when we were found on religious freedom so whatever religion he is should actually not be controversial.

Your always gonna have your Bible-thumping people in our country screaming about what "God wants" and how we have to appease that. We do go out of our way in this country to appease Christians since they'll have an uproar over any little thing, we don't do that to any other religion to the extent as we do of Christianity. Obviously I don't believe this is right, but I was brought up strictly Southern Baptist and all these views were shoved down my throat for years. I know people who go out of their way to make homosexuals feel dirty and horrible, and who go out of their way to shame women who got pregnant out of wedlock, and who every chance they get bash other religions especially Islam. It's appalling we let this go on in a "freedom of religion " and we let this dictate how everyone else should live so much.

merlin.:

[size=93] Then why did you bring any of that up? If you wanna play Devil's Advocate, you need to either state that in the beginning or take your lumps. If you believe those things should stay that way, then you obviously are undermining the fact that all of the theists of other persuasions, as well as non-theists, would be offended by the things that represent their country are doing so with Christianity.

I didn't think someone would think too hard into what I said, when I clearly said before I have trouble expressing myself.

And actually, I've heard of a lot of people of different religions and what not that don't mind the fact that God is mentioned.

It's really not that big of a deal, I'm just saying that God be kept in the pledge, as God could mean a lot of things, and that the monuments stay the same. Really, has nothing to do with the government or the way things are run...

My Dear Delirious:

^ I think again she wasn't very clear earlier in what she was saying and she didn't really know how to understand how to properly explain her views.

I think what's she's trying to get at is that this may be a country founded on "freedom of religion" yet Christianity is very dominate in our culture. Especially when it comes to certain debates such as homosexuality and abortion. When people argue against those two arguments they almost always drag the Christian bible into it. I love to debate, but I've never been in a debate about either of these subjects and someone brought in another religion other than Christianity. In our country Christianity is pretty dominate, we have a Religious belt of the United States that is very much devoted to Christianity. I always think it's funny whenever people start going on how Obama might be Muslim thus he shouldn't be our leader, when we were found on religious freedom so whatever religion he is should actually not be controversial.

Thank you.

My Dear Delirious:

Your always gonna have your Bible-thumping people in our country screaming about what "God wants" and how we have to appease that. We do go out of our way in this country to appease Christians since they'll have an uproar over any little thing, we don't do that to any other religion to the extent as we do of Christianity. Obviously I don't believe this is right, but I was brought up strictly Southern Baptist and all these views were shoved down my throat for years. I know people who go out of their way to make homosexuals feel dirty and horrible, and who go out of their way to shame women who got pregnant out of wedlock, and who every chance they get bash other religions especially Islam. It's appalling we let this go on in a "freedom of religion " and we let this dictate how everyone else should live so much.

I know, I hate when people force their religions into state. I also actually feel sick whenever I see anyone bashing someone else just because they don't follow the stereotypical "Christian way." I mean, if you really were Christian, you wouldn't be bullying someone who's different. It's the exact opposite of what the Bible says to do.

Emilie Autumn.:

I didn't think someone would think too hard into what I said, when I clearly said before I have trouble expressing myself.

And actually, I've heard of a lot of people of different religions and what not that don't mind the fact that God is mentioned.

It's really not that big of a deal, I'm just saying that God be kept in the pledge, as God could mean a lot of things, and that the monuments stay the same. Really, has nothing to do with the government or the way things are run...

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can't have some disclaimer and then run off saying things and not have anyone respond to them in-depth. If you can't communicate properly, learn how.

Just because your little sampling of people doesn't seem to care doesn't mean that it should remain there! Obviously me alone caring shows that there are more people who do, and since we live here, pay taxes, and support many other aspects of our government and community, we deserve to be properly represented, period. Religion and government do not mix. Constitution, again.

Please understand that I do not see you as shoving anything down anyone's throat, or "bashing" them. You personally are part of the problem in a small way, yes, but I say it benignly. For every person living here that says "under God" is okay, there is another Muslim woman who came here to escape persecution in her country, who has just become a citizen legally and given tons of money (and years of waiting) to do so, saying to herself, "Maybe I don't belong here, because these people don't want me enough to care about what hurts me." And that is not okay.