Abortions.

merlin.:

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can't have some disclaimer and then run off saying things and not have anyone respond to them in-depth. If you can't communicate properly, learn how.

Well, I'm sorry I can't learn how. I'm not going to bring something discussed in another thread into this one.

Merlin.:

Just because your little sampling of people doesn't seem to care doesn't mean that it should remain there! Obviously me alone caring shows that there are more people who do, and since we live here, pay taxes, and support many other aspects of our government and community, we deserve to be properly represented, period. Religion and government do not mix. Constitution, again.

Why does it bother you so much that it's there? And I know that there are people that do care- I'm just saying there's not as many who don't.

merlin.:

Please understand that I do not see you as shoving anything down anyone's throat, or "bashing" them. You personally are part of the problem in a small way, yes, but I say it benignly. For every person living here that says "under God" is okay, there is another Muslim woman who came here to escape persecution in her country, who has just become a citizen legally and given tons of money (and years of waiting) to do so, saying to herself, "Maybe I don't belong here, because these people don't want me enough to care about what hurts me." And that is not okay.

Muslims believe in God, they just call Him Allah. And she should learn that we're not like that here. Isn't that why she came here in the first place?

Emilie Autumn.:

Why does it bother you so much that it's there? And I know that there are people that do care- I'm just saying there's not as many who don't.

Muslims believe in God, they just call Him Allah. And she should learn that we're not like that here. Isn't that why she came here in the first place?

It bothers me (and others) that it's there because it undermines the very principles on which this country was founded.

And no, they believe in ALLAH, not GOD. They believe in a diety, but not GOD. He is called Allah.

Secondly, wow. We're not like WHAT here? Also, I beg to differ. There are many Muslims here, so you might want to rethink that, since you're actually 100% wrong - we are like that here, the same that we are "like" Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Athiest, Pagan, Buddhist, etc. That's the entire point. :/

I don't undertstand what you're saying. =/

But I meant that we don't really rip people apart just because they're Muslim or Jew or whatever.

Merlin, I 100% agree with you. It seems in this country a majority of the population who happens to be Christian shy's away from the fact that the country they so proud of and that God must have given as a present to the world, shy away from the fact that we were found so whoever could practice whatever religion they choose. I know many Christians who hold themselves up higher than those of other religion, and get offended when this country doesn't force everyone to except their thinking.

I 100% believe you should be allowed to practice whatever religion you want (except if your rituals end up hurting/killing others). I 100% agree that just because there happens to be one persistant religion in this country that that religion and what they believe shouldn't be allowed to dictate other's lives. Honestly, abortion wouldn't be something that cendemned so many women to "horrible selfish creatures" if it wasn't for Christianity. Abortion in alot of non-Christian cultures has been revered as a perfectly fine solution (in Japan, even a couple of hundred years ago, it was seen as a good thing due to the country not being able to support all those people. They often refered to it as "Thinning the rice shoots" and were thankful they got enough to eat and feed thier families). In this culture if someone gets an abortion it's typical for them to then be looked down on. Honestly, it's thier life, it's their life if that kid gets born it'd be affecting.

Also I wanna throw out there is that a common arguement for pro-life is "well you never known what that kid would have done, they could have found a cure to cancer!" or along those lines, and it's completely rubbish. Most children who would have been aborted get this, are unwanted, and sadly most of the time those kids turn to a life of crime. One theory why the crime rates dropped was cause alot of the people who would have most likely weren't growing into delinquents is because they weren't born.

My Dear Delirious:

Merlin, I 100% agree with you. It seems in this country a majority of the population who happens to be Christian shy's away from the fact that the country they so proud of and that God must have given as a present to the world, shy away from the fact that we were found so whoever could practice whatever religion they choose. I know many Christians who hold themselves up higher than those of other religion, and get offended when this country doesn't force everyone to except their thinking.

I 100% believe you should be allowed to practice whatever religion you want (except if your rituals end up hurting/killing others). I 100% agree that just because there happens to be one persistant religion in this country that that religion and what they believe shouldn't be allowed to dictate other's lives. Honestly, abortion wouldn't be something that cendemned so many women to "horrible selfish creatures" if it wasn't for Christianity. Abortion in alot of non-Christian cultures has been revered as a perfectly fine solution (in Japan, even a couple of hundred years ago, it was seen as a good thing due to the country not being able to support all those people. They often refered to it as "Thinning the rice shoots" and were thankful they got enough to eat and feed thier families). In this culture if someone gets an abortion it's typical for them to then be looked down on. Honestly, it's thier life, it's their life if that kid gets born it'd be affecting.

I agree with you exactly.

My Dear Delirious:

Also I wanna throw out there is that a common arguement for pro-life is "well you never known what that kid would have done, they could have found a cure to cancer!" or along those lines, and it's completely rubbish. Most children who would have been aborted get this, are unwanted, and sadly most of the time those kids turn to a life of crime. One theory why the crime rates dropped was cause alot of the people who would have most likely weren't growing into delinquents is because they weren't born.

Yes, and another thing that they say is something along the lines of "Pro Life: Your mother was" or something. They, for some reason, think that Pro Choice = Pro Abortion which it doesn't. Pro choice just means that you can choose to keep the fetus or not. I think the majority of people who are pro life are just very ignorant.

^ yeah I guess I kinda get what your saying.

Actually I was reading a short story yesterday and it had one part that (I don't remember the exact wording) was talking about how you never asked to be alive, someone else brought you into this life and it never mattered until you had it.

Hmm, I agree with that. Sometimes when I'm depressed, one thought that runs through my mind is "I didn't ask to be here" and then I get all mad lol. I think the life of the fetus is basically insignificant until birth. It's not a baby, it's a fetus. It really annoys me when people call a fetus a baby. I don't really know why...

Sometimes I think of the fetus as a parasite because it basically lives off of the mother. I don't know.

But I'm not saying I'm against pregnancy or anything. The only times I'm against it is when you don't actually want a baby.

I always hate it when people shove it down your throat "Abortion is wrong! My mom didn't abort me and she was a teen mom!" Cause not everyone's situation can allow them to have a kid right then. Some people, yeah it's hard for them, but it's alot easier for them then some other women.

Emilie Autumn.:

I think the life of the fetus is basically insignificant until birth. It's not a baby, it's a fetus. It really annoys me when people call a fetus a baby.

And your very free to believe that, but you have to understand that some people disagree strongly with your opinion, and therefore we will continue to stand up for what we believe to be right, just as you will stand up for what you think it right.

I strongly believe that a fetus is more then just a parasite, and therefore I will fight to defend it.

My Dear Delirious:

I always hate it when people shove it down your throat "Abortion is wrong! My mom didn't abort me and she was a teen mom!" Cause not everyone's situation can allow them to have a kid right then. Some people, yeah it's hard for them, but it's alot easier for them then some other women.

It should also be noted that not all abortions are gotten by teenagers. A lot of adults get abortions too. I don't agree with abortions, however I believe everyone has a right to choose for themselves (free will, anyone?) and therefore I am pro-choice.

^ Exactly I hate the stigma that "only slutty teen moms get abortions" example:

When I was 14 my ex boyfriend decided to get me back by getting me pregnant, he proceeded to get me drunk and then having sex with me after I passed out. Now I fully accept the fact I shouldn't have been drinking and shouldn't have been drinking with him. Luckily I didn't get pregnant, but until I was able to confirm that I wasn't, I was planning on having an abortion. I couldn't keep the kid, I had no say in whether I wanted it, it was forced.

Now fast forward almost 2 years later. I CONSENTED to having sex with my boyfriend, unfortunatly our birth control method failed and I got pregnant. It was different circumstances, and I was planning on keeping the kid.

They are completely different situations. If I didn't want to have sex with the first guy, why should I have been forced to then carry around his kid for 9 months? I shouldn't have been drinking and it was dumb of me to put myself in that situation, I fully acknowledge that. When I did actually get pregnant and I wanted to have sex with the guy, our method failed. But due to it being different, I was gonna keep the kid.

There's a reason why people use contraceptives. They know they can't have a kid right now. Unfortunately no contraceptive is 100% effective, the condem failed me. That's why there is abortions, same thing if the person is forced to have sex and unwanted pregnancy results. The trauma of that experience alone is terrible, but add in carrying that person's kid for nine months then delivering it?

I ended up having a miscarriage. I would be 6 almost 7 months pregnant right now if I hadn't. Which obviously I had no control over the miscarriage happening, it was extremely painful and it was a really hard thing.

But once your pregnant and that pregnancy suddenly stops, whether it be from you deciding to end it or your body does for you, it seriously messes with your head. People say it's "so easy" for women to have an abortion, but I know from having a miscarriage (which I wasn't ready for the kid, but I was gonna take full responsibilty and own up to my actions) it was hard afterwards. You start crying randomly, your body freaks out in some weird ways etc.

^^ I think their are very few people who would call an abortion "easy". And obviously if they do then they are unbelievably ignorant. The loss of a fetus whether through an abortion or a miscarriage should never be an easy thing, simply because life is so precious, even in the smallest and simplest of forms.

I too was in a situation where I thought I was pregnant. Its a scary thing. A really scary thing. Though while the situations of being forced into pregnancy or becoming pregnant through your own actions, I dont think that should effect the life of someone other then yourself...and im speaking of the life of the fetus. The fetus also had no choice in the matter of existing, yet we seem to make decisions for them. "Oh if they were a child of rape they wouldnt want to live with the guilt." "Oh they have two nice loving parents, they will surely be a happy child." Who are we to make the distinction.

A fetus, while living and growing inside its mother, is completely seperate being. The fetus being dependent on the mothers care does not make it nothing more then another organ or body part. A fetus has its own seperate DNA code. Its a seperate being from the mother. And while I think mothers have rights, I also think other living beings also have rights, and dont think its up to me to decide who's rights are more important.

But while you think that the fetus shall live, you're basically saying that it has more rights than the mother because you're destroying her right to choose. The mother already has a life, she may be very successful and all her success might crumble because of the fetus. The fetus hasn't really done anything with itself.

A fetus is basically a parasite. Parasites depend on their host to bring them nutrients and they are completely seperate beings from their host, just like fetuses.

I never said that I wish to destroy a mothers right to choose. I can disagree with her choice and I can dislike her choice. But I also believe that all fetuses have the right to life. I believe that life begins at conception, you may not. We both are free to believe as we wish, and neither of our sides can be scientifically proven. Therefore you have the right to stand up for the mothers rights to choose, and I have the right to stand up for the fetus' right to life.

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The mother already has a life, she may be very successful and all her success might crumble because of the fetus.

The problem is we each have our own points of view. I dont think that our lives are about us, or about our convenience, or even about always being happy. Therefore the effect of a baby on a mothers "success" isnt a legitimate argument to me. I believe that once you get pregnant your life should no longer be about yourself, and you now have a responsibility to someone else. To give them life even if its not convenient for you. Or possibly even to give them life even if its harmful to you. I believe everything happens for a reason and that we, as humans, dont have the right to choose who lives and who dies.

My arguments wont seem legitimate to you, and yours wont seem legitimate to me. Its all about point of view.

^ I think both of your arguments are legitimate, but they stem from fundamental differences.

"Pro-life" is for the life of the fetus. The fetus is human and an individual from the time of conception, and therefore has the same rights as any other human, in particular, the right to live.

"Pro-choice" is for the choice of the mother. The fetusis not a human being until some date/event after conception. Until then, it is inseparable from the mother, and as a result, is not a distinct human being. Therefore, the mother's well being, quality of life, and choice supersede the life of the fetus.

I think this debate really boils down to "When is a fetus an equal to his or her mother?" Both sides have extremely different and - I believe - irreconcilable views on this, so this debate will continue to rage on. I don't think it's a stretch to say that most of the other arguments for and against abortion are simply extensions, justifications and explanations of the benefits and moral imperatives of each side. And yet, no side is wrong, nor is it mother vs. child. The life of the fetus becomes more important than the choice of the mother, but the date, whether it is conception, first heartbeat/brain signal, viability, or birth, is what the debate is about.