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Abortions.

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Mindfuck
Always Born a Crime
Mindfuck
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June 29th, 2010 at 11:02pm
My Dear Delirious:
But once your pregnant and that pregnancy suddenly stops, whether it be from you deciding to end it or your body does for you, it seriously messes with your head. People say it's "so easy" for women to have an abortion, but I know from having a miscarriage (which I wasn't ready for the kid, but I was gonna take full responsibilty and own up to my actions) it was hard afterwards. You start crying randomly, your body freaks out in some weird ways etc.
Why are you apparently comparing having an abortion and having a miscarriage? They're different, and not everyone will experience the same emotional response. The difference between a miscarriage and an abortion is that an abortion is deliberate, and most of the time the person chooses to end the pregnancy (I'd be lying if I said every woman chooses, but most in my part of the world most likely would, in my opinion).

You obviously had a very emotional reaction to the end of the pregnancy because you had no control over it and you didn't want it to end. But with abortion, there are women who choose to have one because they want to, or even need to. You can't say that every woman who's pregnancy comes to an end whether it be by miscarriage or abortion will have the exact same emotional response.

After an abortion, there are women that feel relief. Others feel anxious. Some will regret it. Others won't. Some will be happy. Some indifferent. Some sad. Etc.

Miscarriage is different, and it's often abrupt and unexpected. You can't say the same for abortion. I don't think the two can be compared in the way you're comparing them and saying "well this is what happened to me, so for other women it must be like that".

LunacyFringe:
My arguments wont seem legitimate to you, and yours wont seem legitimate to me. Its all about point of view.
Just because one disagrees, it doesn't mean it's illegitimate.

Her argument of the baby impacting on the woman's success is completely legitimate because that example happens in real life. That is a reason for why some women would get abortions. It happens. It may not be the path you would choose, but that doesn't mean it's illegitimate.

I've always said when it comes to abortions, if you don't agree with abortion or don't like abortion then don't have one. Just as you don't believe one's life should revolve around them when it comes to pregnancy and children, I don't believe anyone else should choose anyone else's life path.
whipstickagostop;
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June 29th, 2010 at 11:17pm
Mindfuck:
I've always said when it comes to abortions, if you don't agree with abortion or don't like abortion then don't have one. Just as you don't believe one's life should revolve around them when it comes to pregnancy and children, I don't believe anyone else should choose anyone else's life path.


Exactly. I feel that's the thing pro-lifers forget about is the word CHOICE. It means you get to CHOOSE to get an abortion or not get an abortion, but they seem to say it's forcing women to have an abortion. I feel the same way- if you're against it, then just don't get one. You shouldn't choose for every other woman in your country.
LunacyFringe
Killjoy
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July 1st, 2010 at 12:47am
Mindfuck:
Just because one disagrees, it doesn't mean it's illegitimate.


I was more talking about the reaons for having an abortion. She said that a woman can have an abortion because having a baby would impact her success in life, and my opinion is that, that isnt a legitimate reason to have an abortion. I didnt mean it to sound like her opinions were illigitimate. I completely understand why people would be pro-choice, I just dont share the same views as them.

Mindfuck:
I've always said when it comes to abortions, if you don't agree with abortion or don't like abortion then don't have one.


I understand what your saying, but that idea really cant coinside with my views. Think of it this way: Say you travel to another country and see a group of people performing a human sacrifice. Now I think its safe to assume that you dont agree with murder, and that human sacrifice is indeed murder. So if you were against human sacrifice I mean you wouldnt just stand there and watch it happen and say nothing. You would try and do something to stop it. Now if you were to do things from the point of view you suggest then you would just let the sacrifice slide because those people dont think its wrong. If you dont agree with human sacfrifice...then dont sacrifice people. Well you cant really just stand back and allow murder because a group of people think its ok.

Through my eyes that is how I see abortion. The killing of another human being. Which is why I cant just not have an abortion myself, but stand around and be ok with the people around me having abortions. Thats not to say I want to force all people to conform to my views, but I have to stand up for what I believe to be right.
Mindfuck
Always Born a Crime
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July 1st, 2010 at 10:22pm
LunacyFringe:
I was more talking about the reaons for having an abortion. She said that a woman can have an abortion because having a baby would impact her success in life, and my opinion is that, that isnt a legitimate reason to have an abortion. I didnt mean it to sound like her opinions were illigitimate. I completely understand why people would be pro-choice, I just dont share the same views as them.
But who are you to suggest that a reason a woman might have for having a an abortion is illegitimate?

There are women out there who make a decision to have an abortion based on career, success or their path in life at that moment, and I don't feel like their reason should be discounted. I don't understand why you feel it necessary to brand it 'illegitimate'.

LunacyFringe:
I understand what your saying, but that idea really cant coinside with my views. Think of it this way: Say you travel to another country and see a group of people performing a human sacrifice. Now I think its safe to assume that you dont agree with murder, and that human sacrifice is indeed murder. So if you were against human sacrifice I mean you wouldnt just stand there and watch it happen and say nothing. You would try and do something to stop it. Now if you were to do things from the point of view you suggest then you would just let the sacrifice slide because those people dont think its wrong. If you dont agree with human sacfrifice...then dont sacrifice people. Well you cant really just stand back and allow murder because a group of people think its ok.

Through my eyes that is how I see abortion. The killing of another human being. Which is why I cant just not have an abortion myself, but stand around and be ok with the people around me having abortions. Thats not to say I want to force all people to conform to my views, but I have to stand up for what I believe to be right.
Abortion and human sacrifice are very different. With a human sacrifice, you are killing a human being that can feel, think and comprehend - and it also goes against human rights.

Abortion doesn't go against human rights. The fetus isn't actually a human being, like I'm a human being or you're a human being. And the time when the majority of abortions are performed the fetus cannot feel pain (according to the Guttmacher Institute, 9 out of 10 abortions in the US are performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, which is long before the fetus starts to feel any pain. I'm using US statistics because I find it quite difficult to find unbiased abortion info from my country).
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In The Murder Scene
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July 2nd, 2010 at 03:14pm
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Always Born a Crime
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July 2nd, 2010 at 07:12pm
^ I'm just wondering, why does the ability to feel pain affect whether or not abortion should be legal?

Mindfuck:
Abortion and human sacrifice are very different. With a human sacrifice, you are killing a human being that can feel, think and comprehend - and it also goes against human rights.

Abortion doesn't go against human rights. The fetus isn't actually a human being, like I'm a human being or you're a human being. And the time when the majority of abortions are performed the fetus cannot feel pain (according to the Guttmacher Institute, 9 out of 10 abortions in the US are performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, which is long before the fetus starts to feel any pain. I'm using US statistics because I find it quite difficult to find unbiased abortion info from my country).


The whole argument against abortion is based on the fact that a fetus is a human being. Those arguments (feeling, thinking, comprehending) could also be applied to some who are mentally incapacitated and/or comatose, but they are no less humans than anyone else who has already been born. I think there is something differentiating "human beings" and fetuses, but it is not the ability to feel, think, or comprehend.
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In The Murder Scene
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July 3rd, 2010 at 01:15am
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^ I'm just wondering, why does the ability to feel pain affect whether or not abortion should be legal?


I am wondering how it wouldn't have any effect, whatsoever, on lawmakers' decisions?
The Rumor
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July 3rd, 2010 at 03:30pm
Whether the fetus can feel pain is a factor because if it could, there'd be cruelty issues. The general consensus in humans is that if it is not chosen by the 'victim' and creates pain, it is bad.

That being said, before I read this thread for the first time, that factor hadn't even occurred to me personally. My personal beliefs on abortion are based on the life and soul of the fetus, which I believe to be present from fertilisation.

It all goes back to the age old argument of science vs. religion/spirituality.
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In The Murder Scene
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July 4th, 2010 at 04:29pm
What separates a human fetus from a growing head of lettuce, then?
LunacyFringe
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July 5th, 2010 at 10:07pm
Mindfuck:

Abortion doesn't go against human rights. The fetus isn't actually a human being, like I'm a human being or you're a human being.

Everything you just said right there is an opinion, not fact. I believe abortions does go against a fetus' right to life. I believe a fetus is an actual human being, just like you and I are human beings, just in a different stage of life.

Mindfuck:
And the time when the majority of abortions are performed the fetus cannot feel pain


I dont believe that a fetus' ability to feel pain is what makes it a human or not. I believe that human life starts at conception. Simple as that. I dont believe there are exceptions, i dont believe in if's and's or but's about it. I also believe in the idea that humans (including fetus's) have souls. I believe the soul is what makes us humans. Its what distinguishes us from animals and plants. And I believe that fetuses have souls.

^^
merlin.:
What separates a human fetus from a growing head of lettuce, then?
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In The Murder Scene
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July 6th, 2010 at 12:18am
I don't believe that laws should be based on a belief in souls, especially because there is absolutely zero proof that souls exist. If there was, however, I do believe that would be the trump card.
whipstickagostop;
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July 6th, 2010 at 12:40am
LunacyFringe:
I dont believe that a fetus' ability to feel pain is what makes it a human or not. I believe that human life starts at conception. Simple as that. I dont believe there are exceptions, i dont believe in if's and's or but's about it. I also believe in the idea that humans (including fetus's) have souls. I believe the soul is what makes us humans. Its what distinguishes us from animals and plants. And I believe that fetuses have souls.


I believe that humans (and animals, but that's beside the point) have souls, but I don't think fetuses have them. I believe life begins at the first breath and/or when the cord is cut and the infant is completely detatched from the mother. Therefore, abortion does not infringe human rights, because the fetus is not alive. I mean, it has a beating heart and all, but its life has not yet started, therefore is insignificant and not human.
LunacyFringe
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July 6th, 2010 at 11:07am
^^ You do know that a fetus is able to live outside the womb much before its actual due date. I was born 8 weeks premature. I needed a little medical assistance, but I was developed enough to live outside my mothers womb.

I guess I dont understand how a baby that is a week away from being born is not a human being, and a baby that has just been born is a human being, when those two babies have all of the same characteristics...
Jenny.
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July 6th, 2010 at 12:18pm
^Personally, I think the stage at which the foetus stops being a thing and starts being human is when it can survive outside the womb.
The Rumor
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July 6th, 2010 at 01:32pm
^ In the UK, that is when the cut-off date for an abortion is. That's pretty insane (at least in my opinion) when you consider that that is 24 weeks, by which time the baby can be felt kicking and a bump can almost definitely be seen. The baby can also respond to light outside the womb and hear sounds (including voices) outside the womb.
whipstickagostop;
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July 7th, 2010 at 09:50pm
LunacyFringe:
^^ You do know that a fetus is able to live outside the womb much before its actual due date. I was born 8 weeks premature. I needed a little medical assistance, but I was developed enough to live outside my mothers womb.

I guess I dont understand how a baby that is a week away from being born is not a human being, and a baby that has just been born is a human being, when those two babies have all of the same characteristics...


I know that there are infants born before their due date and such, but I believe that life begins once they're outside the womb, not when they're basically the same thing as a child outside of it. I think that once their entire body is out of the womb, their life has begun.
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Always Born a Crime
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July 9th, 2010 at 12:05am
^ There was a case where a fetus was surgically removed from the womb, operated on, returned, and birthed. I don't believe a fetus becomes a person when they are out of the womb; I believe it becomes a person when it is able to exist outside of the womb. Once the mother and the fetus can live seperately, then I believe they are two different people, because until then, the fetus is part of the mother.
whipstickagostop;
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July 9th, 2010 at 10:25am
Well, I see your point. But I still think that even if they can exist outside the womb, abortions should still be made legal because I still think they are just parasites.
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Always Born a Crime
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July 9th, 2010 at 11:52am
For anything less than the life of the mother, I don't think it's right to kill something that is able to survive on its own. I see it as different than killing a non-viable fetus because I see the point of viability as when it stops becoming just a mass of cells, but rather, human.

I don't see fetuses as just parasites either. Parasites take and give nothing back. But pregnancy isn't all bad, and neither is parenthood, and they allow humans to continue (whether humans are parasites is another debate).
whipstickagostop;
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July 9th, 2010 at 11:58am
I believe fetuses are parasites because they live inside the mother and live off of nutrients she gains, which is the same thing parasites do. Once it's living outside the mother I don't think of it as a parasite anymore.