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Suicide and Self harm

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thank fsm.
In The Murder Scene
thank fsm.
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 20564
June 10th, 2010 at 01:51pm
Emilie is correct - the are some people that engage in scarification. I would say that this is definitely in the same realm as tattooing and other body modification.

But really, the idea of this thread is not the body modification - it's self-harm, where the intent is not decorative; it is to hurt oneself. Though, under that link, you can look under "Reasons" and it'll give you the primary reason for becoming unintentionally addicted to cutting. I'd dare say most people who cut and don't discuss it like we do here probably aren't even aware that this is happening.
Go fuck yourself
Devil's Got Your Number
Go fuck yourself
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 37823
June 10th, 2010 at 03:25pm
But with scarification, how could you distinguish whether their being decorative or destruction? I saw one chick at Disneyland who was standing next to me in line, she was wearing a short skirt and both legs were just these deep lacerations in spirals up that from what I could see was he whole leg. So whose to say "oh this is scarification" rather than she freaked out and did that to herself to be destructive?

In the book It's Kind of a Funny Story, there was a character in there who cut lines across her face, parallel lines across her whole face. She explained why she did it, and she wanted to destroy herself while at the same time doing it along the lines of scarification so guys would leave her alone. I realize that's a book but there's gotta be out there who have done things like that: such as possibly like the chick from Disneyland.
thank fsm.
In The Murder Scene
thank fsm.
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 20564
June 10th, 2010 at 08:58pm
Well, the person doing it knows that, and it's up to them to be honest. It's not a well-understood form of body mod, but tattoos were also when they became more mainstream.
Go fuck yourself
Devil's Got Your Number
Go fuck yourself
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 37823
June 11th, 2010 at 02:46pm
yeah oh I agree. A person on the outside, you might just be "well are they doing this to hurt themselves or to decorate themselves?" Cause sometimes when it's that severe someone needs help. You can't control anyone else's life and you can't tell them how to live, but there does come a piont when you need to step up and get other people involved to help.
lennyK
Fabulous Killjoy
lennyK
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Posts: 113
January 9th, 2011 at 07:16pm
I want people's in-put on this, I've had this conversation before, but I just can't understand their point of view.



We are humans, and we can do whatever we want to our bodies. We can smoke, drink excessivley, have sex with as many people as we want, knowing fully well that it will harm us in one way or another...yet people still do it. Because you can do whatever you want to your body..because you have ownership of your body.

And people say it's wrong. Why? If you have ownership of your body, if you have sovereignty over your body, why can't you harm it in any way you desire? This includes cutting.

Why is it bad to harm your body if that's what YOU (the ruler of your body) want to do?
Neesa
Fabulous Killjoy
Neesa
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 142
January 10th, 2011 at 06:20am
lennyK:
I want people's in-put on this, I've had this conversation before, but I just can't understand their point of view.



We are humans, and we can do whatever we want to our bodies. We can smoke, drink excessivley, have sex with as many people as we want, knowing fully well that it will harm us in one way or another...yet people still do it. Because you can do whatever you want to your body..because you have ownership of your body.

And people say it's wrong. Why? If you have ownership of your body, if you have sovereignty over your body, why can't you harm it in any way you desire? This includes cutting.

Why is it bad to harm your body if that's what YOU (the ruler of your body) want to do?


The only explanation I can offer is that it is frowned upon by society. Society has constructed norms and values that we are supposed to live by and acts such as drinking excessively and having sex with numerous people goes against what society has set out for the population. Even smoking is frowned upon by some people. As was said, they all cause harm in one way or another, along with cutting and I agree with the point made.

I think people should be allowed to do what they want to their bodies because, as mentioned, we have ownership of them. I do believe, however, that there is usually an underlying reason as to why people commit such acts and that reason can be destructive. As an example, people may drink excessively because they have an addiction which is the result of a traumatic life experience, or they may have suffered emotional/physical abuse which has driven them to drink. This can also explain cutting.

In these circumstances, I think it is important to address the underlying cause of these acts to determine why somebody smokes/drinks excessively/is promiscuous/cuts. If there is no trigger to their desire to do these things and they have no want to stop, then I think they should be able to continue doing them. It is very difficult to help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

I'm aware that I may sound uncaring, but I'm not. I understand how difficult it can be to try and get someone to kick an addiction when they have the motivation to do so, let alone when they don't. I believe the help should be there for them, but if they don't want it, they shouldn't be made to have it. After all, our bodies are ours and we should be able to govern what happens to them.

Sorry for such a long post.
doctor.
In The Murder Scene
doctor.
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 23302
January 11th, 2011 at 05:52pm
Neesa:
Society has constructed norms and values that we are supposed to live by and acts such as drinking excessively and having sex with numerous people goes against what society has set out for the population.

I actually disagree with this. I think it has become increasingly permissible for these things to happen within society and I think cutting yourself is no different. It is now recognised as a 'phase' that many teenagers go through and is, in fact, becoming a 'norm' within society.

Neesa:
I believe the help should be there for them, but if they don't want it, they shouldn't be made to have it. After all, our bodies are ours and we should be able to govern what happens to them.

This is quite an interesting point to me. I am very curious about whether there are restrictions on this. Is someone ever not able to govern their own bodies? To me, it's a much more complex issue than simply saying 'your body, your choice'. Things need to be taken into consideration such as age. When are you old enough to govern what happens to your body? Is it from the moment you are born, can speak, can move independently? I have already mentioned that self harm is common within young teens and I wonder if you believe it is still 'their body, their choice?'. When they could live to regret such a decision and are hurting a lot more people than just themselves.

It is also forgotten that self harm is often an indication of someone suffering a mental illness. Are these people really in the right frame of mind to be able to govern what happens to their body? If people are hurting so bad that they just want to give up and harm themselves, is it really wise that society 'leaves them to get on with it'?
lennyK
Fabulous Killjoy
lennyK
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Posts: 113
January 14th, 2011 at 01:45pm
You make a point about when a person is able to have control of their own body. There is no set age, or event that defines when a person is ready to make their own decisions. Just like when one turns 18, and is considered an adult...are they REALLY at the stage of an adult? There are too many variables in life to define this universally. Where someone grew up, how they were raised etc.

When one is able to to make decisions for themselves, they rely less on what their parents told them, and more on what THEY perceive.

For example, a child who is eating lunch at school will rely on their mother to prepare it and pack it. Whereas a teenager will rely on themselves to pack their lunch.

The teenager has made a decision for themselves about what they want to put into their body and the child has relied on someone else to make that decision.

Even this example is not adequate! There are far too many variables, maybe the teenagers DOES still rely on their mother for packing their lunch, or maybe the child packs their own lunch. Who knows. It is different for everyone.


I would be interested on you elaborating how exactly others are harmed by self-mutilation. I've never gotten this point.
fabulous killjoy.
Moderator
fabulous killjoy.
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Posts: 46256
January 14th, 2011 at 01:48pm
lennyK:
I would be interested on you elaborating how exactly others are harmed by self-mutilation. I've never gotten this point.
Because you're emotionally hurting them. Do you know how much it hurts and scares someone to know that someone they love is hurting themselves? How all they can think about is the "what ifs". It's not about physical pain, it's the emotional pain that people go through because someone they love is hurting themselves in ways they shouldn't be. They go through the "maybe i could have helped" and "what happens if i can't help" and so on and so forth.
Neesa
Fabulous Killjoy
Neesa
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 142
January 14th, 2011 at 05:30pm
doctor.:
I actually disagree with this. I think it has become increasingly permissible for these things to happen within society and I think cutting yourself is no different. It is now recognised as a 'phase' that many teenagers go through and is, in fact, becoming a 'norm' within society.


I'd say that's a bit of a generalisation and quite harsh to call it a 'phase'. I don't think it is becoming more common, I just think people are becoming more aware of it and people are (slightly) more willing to ask for help.

doctor.:
This is quite an interesting point to me. I am very curious about whether there are restrictions on this. Is someone ever not able to govern their own bodies? To me, it's a much more complex issue than simply saying 'your body, your choice'. Things need to be taken into consideration such as age. When are you old enough to govern what happens to your body? Is it from the moment you are born, can speak, can move independently? I have already mentioned that self harm is common within young teens and I wonder if you believe it is still 'their body, their choice?'. When they could live to regret such a decision and are hurting a lot more people than just themselves.

It is also forgotten that self harm is often an indication of someone suffering a mental illness. Are these people really in the right frame of mind to be able to govern what happens to their body? If people are hurting so bad that they just want to give up and harm themselves, is it really wise that society 'leaves them to get on with it'?


As far as age is concerned, as mentioned by lennyK, there are too many variables to be considered. However, it is usually during teen years that one starts to think for themselves and make their own decisions.
In response to the mental illness point, yes it is usually an indication. This is where help comes in. If a person who is suffering wants help, then they should be able to have help. If they do not, they should not be made to have help as that would do little good. They should be given the opportunity and have things explained to them, but should not be made to take the help. This way, society is not 'leaving them to get on with it'. The help is there for them if they wish to take it, but until they do, they should be able to refuse.
doctor.
In The Murder Scene
doctor.
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 23302
January 15th, 2011 at 10:06am
Neesa:
I'd say that's a bit of a generalisation and quite harsh to call it a 'phase'. I don't think it is becoming more common, I just think people are becoming more aware of it and people are (slightly) more willing to ask for help.
The word 'phase' was in quotation marks. I wasn't calling it a phase. I said it is sometimes 'recognised as a 'phase'' in society which it is. Not ALL the time. Sometimes.

Neesa:
As far as age is concerned, as mentioned by lennyK, there are too many variables to be considered. However, it is usually during teen years that one starts to think for themselves and make their own decisions.
Exactly. I was using that as a critique of your point however both of you managed to miss that I think. You said that you believe it's someone's choice on what they do to their body. I feel you have slightly missed what I was trying to say. I was saying that there is no way of saying 'your choice, your body' because some people aren't able to make that choice, variables included. Offering help to a mentally ill person won't, usually, do much until they have accepted that they have a mental illness. So leaving them to get on with it, simply isn't the right solution as you could be leaving them for god knows how long as they just go down the spiral of depression. And you say during your teen years, that's when you're able to think for yourself, however I know teenagers who self harm and are not fully aware of the consequences. I just don't think 'your choice, your body' is the right approach when it comes to something like self harm.

lennyK:
I would be interested on you elaborating how exactly others are harmed by self-mutilation. I've never gotten this point.
Lycia pretty much said everything I wanted to on this point. Of course it is going to hurt someone close to you emotionally if they know you've been self harming. How could it not? No one wants to see someone they love go through such pain.

I honestly feel, as previously mentioned, that you both missed my point. As I said, I was critiquing Neesa's comment saying there is too many variables when it comes to saying 'your body, your choice'. But alas, that was read differently.
gauche.
Killjoy
gauche.
Age: -
Gender: Female
Posts: 17
January 16th, 2011 at 09:22pm
We each have the power to make our own decisions, weigh the pros and cons and depending on our perspective in life (naive or otherwise) we each continue on or deviate from that decisive path. Blah blah blah.

To get back to basics and derive what "socially acceptable means", we have to think bigger than you and me. The thing that's "wrong" with self harm, whether it be in the shape of cutting, drugs, excessive drinking, etc, is that it opposes everything that nature has set up for us concerning survival. Regardless of what your opinion on evolution is, survival of the fittest is real. Those who are most focused on self preservation will persevere, and those who are foolish with themselves will not.
At least, that's how it used to be.
With technology in modern civilization, concern with self preservation beyond wearing a seatbelt in a car hurtling down the road at 80 mph is limited. Society still manages to hold onto the threads of what used to be by discouraging harmful activities and pining for the survival of loved ones, but beyond that...people will do what they want. Is it logical? No. Maybe at the time it's a form of self expression and relief from emotional pain. In hindsight (spoken personally), it's irresponsible, selfish, and impractical.

Basically, humans are wired to be self PRESERVING. Despite our new found abilities to survive beyond what would have been possible in the past, society still garners health in a relatively high regard, and those that love you will fight for your life.
Lovesick Melody.
Bulletproof Heart
Lovesick Melody.
Age: 80
Gender: Female
Posts: 25760
January 17th, 2011 at 02:20am
gauche.:
The thing that's "wrong" with self harm, whether it be in the shape of cutting, drugs, excessive drinking, etc, is that it opposes everything that nature has set up for us concerning survival.

Being gay means that one cannot produce offspring that has ones genetic code. Nature has created two versions of a species, male and female, to create a varied gene pool which helps the species survive.
Therefore, following your reasoning, anyone who is gay has something "wrong" with them because it opposes what nature has set up to ensure survival. Is it really the big picture that we need to look at, or is it case by case?
gauche.
Killjoy
gauche.
Age: -
Gender: Female
Posts: 17
January 17th, 2011 at 01:41pm
Lovesick Melody.:
gauche.:
The thing that's "wrong" with self harm, whether it be in the shape of cutting, drugs, excessive drinking, etc, is that it opposes everything that nature has set up for us concerning survival.

Being gay means that one cannot produce offspring that has ones genetic code. Nature has created two versions of a species, male and female, to create a varied gene pool which helps the species survive.
Therefore, following your reasoning, anyone who is gay has something "wrong" with them because it opposes what nature has set up to ensure survival. Is it really the big picture that we need to look at, or is it case by case?


I doubt homosexuality affects the success of an individual's survival (as my statement was specifying), but it does squelch the propagation of their genes. Because of that, I hesitate to sweep it under the statement I previously made. Species outside of our own have displayed homosexual behavior as well, and really, the human species isn't exactly under danger of extinction. If we were in a situation where every man and woman were needed to create and bear children, innate sexual preference would be ignored for the sake of continuing life on earth.

Besides, homosexuality isn't a choice one makes. At least, not as far as I can tell. It certainly doesn't fall under the category of suicide and self harm.
Khaos-X-Revolution
Killjoy
Khaos-X-Revolution
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Posts: 4
February 6th, 2011 at 10:59pm
People cut themselves and commit suicide because they aren't satisfied with themselves. Let's face it, keeping your identity in a world that tries to hard to destroy it is not an easy thing. Today's generation is a helluva lot meaner because they have access to the internet and texting and therefore can harass people electronically. And the fact that the entire world can see what's posted on facebook does not help either. I know people who have had their entire reputations ruined just because of some stupid picture posted on facebook or myspace. It's a known fact that high-school suicide rates are increasing every year because of cyber-bullying. I think that's one of the main factors.

It's a sad but true
screwlinseygeeismine
Killjoy
screwlinseygeeismine
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Posts: 5
March 7th, 2011 at 10:28pm
I think that suicide and self-harm is an epidemic, it's slowly killing away many people. Suicide is one of the main causes of death nowadays, and self-harm pushes you further into depression and depression tempts you to commit suicide. There's not anything that we can do about it, because teens like me and my friends and you and your friends all probably think it's what depressed kids should do. They're wrong, of coarse. I used to believe that, it's something teens have to learn for themselves, but once you start cutting, it's really hard to stop. You have to find something that makes you WANT to stop, it's like smoking. If you stop cutting cold turkey, you just want it more. That's why self-harm and suicide are so dangerous.
S713
Joining The Black Parade
S713
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 225
March 9th, 2011 at 09:35am
screwlinseygeeismine:
I think that suicide and self-harm is an epidemic, it's slowly killing away many people. Suicide is one of the main causes of death nowadays, and self-harm pushes you further into depression and depression tempts you to commit suicide. There's not anything that we can do about it, because teens like me and my friends and you and your friends all probably think it's what depressed kids should do. They're wrong, of coarse. I used to believe that, it's something teens have to learn for themselves, but once you start cutting, it's really hard to stop. You have to find something that makes you WANT to stop, it's like smoking. If you stop cutting cold turkey, you just want it more. That's why self-harm and suicide are so dangerous.


It doesn't "tempt" you. It drives you.
It's not like you have a craving for fried chicken. It's a slow torture completely changes your personality and thought process, and physically changes your brain and body.

And it's not a matter of wanting to stop. If you could want yourself happy you could probably shit bunnys, puppy ears, and rainbows and wouldn't have depression in the first place. It's a disease not a lifestyle choice. And lets remember that cutting is a symptom not the root problem. Most people just can't "quit" cutting. You have to take care of the underlying problem first.

As long as we're talking about actual mental illness.
doctor.
In The Murder Scene
doctor.
Age: 27
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Posts: 23302
March 9th, 2011 at 11:24am
Khaos-X-Revolution:
Today's generation is a helluva lot meaner because they have access to the internet and texting and therefore can harass people electronically
That doesn't make people meaner today. Perhaps there are more ways to bully people now but people, themselves, may not be any different. Bullying has always occurred in some form.
S713
Joining The Black Parade
S713
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 225
May 17th, 2011 at 02:11pm
But that being said I think that people value life, other people's happiness, and other people's property a lot less than they did 40 years ago.
Which could be seen as "meaner".
S713
Joining The Black Parade
S713
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 225
May 17th, 2011 at 02:11pm
But that being said I think that people value life, other people's happiness, and other people's property a lot less than they did 40 years ago.
Which could be seen as "meaner".