separation of church and state

Eclipse:

I hear ya....how about just incorporating some Christmas carols, as well as some traditional Hanukkah songs, and some secular ones...expanding the repertoire a bit, so no one feels left out, and no one is saying that the teacher is being preferential?
OR, if someone feels REALLY strongly about not singing songs that mention Jesus, then those people can just sit those songs out, and not have to participate, but have it not effect the grade.
Either way, I don't think that it's fair for those people who WANT to sing the traditional carols. It would be like the non-religious dictating the whole thing, which IMO, is just as bad as the religious people dictating it.

I say, include the traditional carols, but don't MAKE people sing if they don't want to.

See, now that seems more fair and better. But the fact some some schools and/or teachers won't even try to negotiate bugs me.

but also guys think about this one, Christmas. theres a walmart up the street from my house, and before halloween stuff was released, christmas stuff was! and we have so many xmas sales, and post xmas sales, and post post xmas sales, what the hell? what about other religious holidays? you dont see Hanuka sales, or post Kwanzaa sales, and its becuase xmas is a christian holiday.

do you guys have any views on that?

^^^ Wow, that honestly never occurred to me.
That is complete and utter B.S. Ya, sure. The people that celebrate Hanuka, or Kwanzaa can just buy there stuff during Christmas sale time, but... wow. I honestly never thought of that. And all the Christmas movies that are on T.V. also. I've only seen ONE Hanuka show up around Hanuka time, and that was the Adam Sandler one. I'm sure theres more, theres got to be. And all the T.V. stations (well almost) going into '25 days 'til Christmas' mode. You don't see '25 days 'til Hanuka/Kwanzaa'.

I really think the whole separation of church and state law has something going on with it. I really don't think thats fair to people who don't celebrate Christmas. There should be other sales beside Christmas sales, and other t.v. station count down's too. It would make it WAY more fair.

You'd think that with 8 days of Hannukah, the retail outfits would be ALL OVER that action!!!! Of course, I doubt my boss would be too keen on me taking 6 days off of work.

As far as Kwanzaa is concerned...I don't think that's an actual holiday.

^ yeah Kwanzaa is an actual holiday, is based an an african-based religion and thats where you see people mostly celebrating it

^ but i've definitely heard that it's just a made up holiday and there are no traditions really involved with it and that it's only been developed really recently.

No, it's really just a way for black people to polarize themselves and make themselves feel special

Karenga said his goal was to "...give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society."

In my eyes. With the way laws are now in the US. The seperation of church and state is non-existent.

freedom is the freedom to belive what you want to belive to live how you want to live and if the chruch and state are one then that defreats the perpose intirly. if two homosexuals wanted to get married then that is there right as humans. who are we to say they cant? religion or no religion. if you belive in god then he gave us free will and no matter if its against your holy book

Ghostgirl191:

...xmas is a christian holiday. do you guys have any views on that?

Yes, I think there should be some sort of massive study which would bring to light to all up tight conservative Christians the hard fact that the Catholic church manipulated the date of the birth of Jesus Christ and constructed the idea of Christmas in the first place in effort to suppress other conflicting religious practices. THEN I think the U.S. should declare the term Christmas, the Christmas tree and the Santa mythology totally and completely secular (meaning, it has no religious basis). Christmas should be considered an American cultural idea, like Valentines Day, and not a religious observance. After all, Valentine's Day was named after a Catholic saint and yet non-Christian people seem perfectly ok buying candy and cards every year. A bit hypocritical?

The origins of Christmas began long before the birth of Jesus and were largely a celebration of winter, food, wine and end of harvest partying. Then the Catholic church stepped in and put a stop to it by holding a rival party on the same day by selling a pack of lies about when Jesus was "really" born. There was no need to celebrate the birth of christ on December 25th. The real "reason for the season" was a power struggle between warring religious groups.

That said, if people want to put up nativity scenes and angels on December 25th in their private homes, so be it. Freedom of choice. However there is nothing, absolutely nothing religious about a tree, a fat man or reindeer. We should be free to display them in public wherever we like. Religious groups need to relax and remember that this holiday is about peace and goodwill, not suing your neighbor.

Ghostgirl191:

but also guys think about this one, Christmas. theres a walmart up the street from my house, and before halloween stuff was released, christmas stuff was! and we have so many xmas sales, and post xmas sales, and post post xmas sales, what the hell? what about other religious holidays? you dont see Hanuka sales, or post Kwanzaa sales, and its becuase xmas is a christian holiday.

do you guys have any views on that?

that is why Christmas is too materialized and commercialized.
i agree completely with you, other holidays should be sponsored all the same, just like the way Christmas is. but then again, let me think of a way to word this, hope someone gets what i am trying to say... not that Christianity is more "popular", it's just that more people gear towards that.

Ghostgirl191:

but also guys think about this one, Christmas. theres a walmart up the street from my house, and before halloween stuff was released, christmas stuff was! and we have so many xmas sales, and post xmas sales, and post post xmas sales, what the hell? what about other religious holidays? you dont see Hanuka sales, or post Kwanzaa sales, and its becuase xmas is a christian holiday.

do you guys have any views on that?

Well..Like i said before, this country was founded by Christians and hanuka and kwanzaa arent major holidays.

X-mas is over commercialized.

P.S. is kwanza even a holiday??
What the hell is it?
I dont know 1 person who celebrates it!

Hanukkah is a major holiday and it is celebrated by millions of Jewish people around the world. However, it is not so not raped by commercialism as Christmas. It may not have the same advertising campaigns, but it is an equally important holiday and perhaps a better one because it does not sell out to merchandising like the Christian holiday.

Kwanzaa is a "new" holiday that consists of seven days of celebration, featuring activities such as candle-lighting and pouring of libations, and culminating in a feast and gift giving. It was created by Ron Karenga in 1966. It is in celebration of black heritage and not necessarily based on any African religion or tradition. There are many that argue it's validity because of that and many who find it racist.

I'm Atheist and I get what you mean.
I hate it when people start talking about religion and then when I tell them I'm Atheist, they try to shove their religion down my throat.
My mother had to go through with that half of her life with one wanting her to be Catholic and the other Luetheran.
That's why my parents raised me atheist, so then when I'm old enough I can explore different religions and choose one that's right for me.

And about the seperation of church and state.
In Geography last year we were learning about religions around the world.
The teacher sent around a sheet where you would write your name down and put your religion next to it.
I was first so I wrote my name and put down atheist.
As the sheet was passed around the class everyone would read the entries on the sheet.
When people read mine, they would look up and stare at me like I was demented or a serial killer or something.
And then because of me being atheist, half the kids in the class wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the year.

Paolo Nutini:

WOO! This law is absolute falsity. Can anybody quote me where, in the Constiution of the US, it says that there must be Separation of Church and State?

Not true, it is not an "abosolute falicy" its just the terminology has been softend for used in society. The idea of separating church and state comes directly from the first Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which is a part of the Constitution, so you're kinda splitting a hair. The actual term "Separation of Church and State" is first used by Jefferson in reference to the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. Since then the term has been officially used in many political circles.

You should know that not everything your teacher tells you is true. I'm sure he would deny me the $200 because of some warrented loop hole, but the topic of separation and the constituiton cannot be resolved so simply as to say it doesn't exist. There are truths on both sides.

Anyway I'm a huge supporter of the Separation, its part of what makes America so great. You are free to believe what you want and the government has apsolutly no say in it. Yet after reading Religious Literacy, a book about the history of religion in America its easy to see that it is not being upheld as it should be.While all of our presidents have swarn to up hold the constitution (thus the spearation), they have done so on a stack of Holy Bibles, creating a sense of stupid irony. For as long as america has existed we have forever been trying to separate chruch and state but have never truly succeded, this is because of the major problem of igrnorance or "religious illiteracy" found here. To truly uphold the constitution, there needs to be standardized World Religion in public shools. The teachers would have to be careful not to critisize or glorify any of the subjects as the purpose of the course would only be to provide insight about each of the worlds leading theologies for the sake of understanding. Thus creating a balance in the US between no state religion and state religoin. For in short, the ignoring of religion by the US government is as much a constitutional violation as instating religion.

Then theres the whole "In God we trust" herang. Which easily bridges any seperatoin that we are strving for. If it held no religious significance then why is the G capitalized? In truth the passage was added to the Pledge during the Cold War by the government to contrast the athiesm of Commuinist Russia. While it is a problem, I believe there are much bigger ones at hand. I mean when you look at all the time effort and money it would take to change it, do we really care? ~ Rex

I live in the "bible belt" area, so I have to deal with this crap everyday. I am agnostic, so I don't think what they do is right at all. One time kids were writing a giant MERRY CHRISTMAS on the board. I decided to go up there, and in small letters I wrote underneath it (or happy Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or Yule). They were furious! They immediately erased it and yelled at me. I said "What, people of other religions can't wish people a happy holidays too?" The response was "No! Were Americans! We celebrate Christmas!" I have heard from a friend that his history teacher informed the class that she thinks the Japanese lost World War II because they were Buddhists. She apparently practically preaches her religion to her students. One time a asked if we could watch The Nightmare Before Christmas for Halloween in my Seminar class, but the teacher said no, since not everyone celebrates Halloween. I was fine with that, but when it was December, we were assigned a project that required Christmas decorations. I asked about what kids would do if they didn't celebrate Christmas. She said they would have to do it or else they would have points taken off. There also is that whole "One Nation UNDER GOD" thing. Oh yeah to the people that said this nation was founded on Christian beliefs, did you know Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Handcock, and Abraham Lincoln were all Agnostic. There were more who were, but I can't remember.