"Mega Churches"

^my youth group doesnt' talk about the bible like maybe once in a blue moon, we usually pray and talk, a good protion of the talk is inaprpiate and get lectured by the leader, so i'm actually really happy it's not religious really

there's a satirical work that a guy dies and looks at the "future world" in the "future world", Priests are already allowed to marry but only to nuns so the money stays only inside the church

hi...I go to Hillsong Church myself.

I think I understand where you’re coming from- person who started this thread.

It's true that the church is getting lots of money. It comes from 2 main sources. One- the people who attend the church. Many would've heard that Hillsong encourages people to give all the time- at every service. The way money is talked about in the church is always based on a bible verse picked for the service. Two- profit that comes from albums, dvds, books etc. The way the church sees it, is that we live in a realistic world...and money is given to us by our efforts, from our abilities, given by God. God is not against money. God utilises what we could do with money (correctly) to provide everyone with resources. (business is not evil!) The bible always talks about money heaps. Also, Hillsong builds huge buildings etc as a way of blessing the community- it’s open to everyone.

I took a seminar at church about how the church runs & how money is dealt with...apparently the church is open to anyone who wants to see all the monetary documents etc.

I think it is most people's perceptions that churches are normally small & traditional. There's nothing wrong with small churches- God gives different pastors in different places different visions (or ideas) for how their church should be like.

With big churches, it is natural to immediately see the visuals ie: size, property, facilities, tv screens. But it is TRUE that we worship, read the bible and pray. The way teenage kids pray awes me…some of them pray to God so fervently & so passionately from the bottom of their hearts…it’s really a challenge.

Take a bit out of my own Christian life (that’s very imperfect lately)- I’ve experienced what it’s like to jump, mosh & raise my arms during worship…I will be very open here… recently due to some personal issues I find it hard to be outwardly exuberant in worship now, but now it’s the slow, soothing songs that helps me to be most worshipful- it helps me to speak the Truth into my life. I’ve experienced how MUCH it takes to be part of the jumping, joyous ‘happy-clappers’ crowd at Hillsong.

As for the lyrics of the songs- it takes guts to sing them. These songs are the least entertaining. You wouldn’t sing the words if you didn’t believe. Even as a Christian, I find it difficult to sing some of the songs.

I told you guys all these to say that Hillsong church's worship really speaks into people's lives and God changes people through that. If you get a chance, ask people at Hillsong how God has changed their life & how church has impacted their life and most likely they can tell you something.

church is really just about life and giving people a real home where they can belong. At Hillsong, we emphasise:

THE CHURCH IS NOT PERIPHERAL TO THE WORLD, BUT THE WORLD IS PERIPHERAL TO THE CHURCH.

if Hillsong is a real home to people, then we ought to also have fun & enjoy church with each other as well as carry the mission that God as assigned the church.

I have so much more to tell…if you want to know more or confused, I’m happy to discuss.

Personally, I believe that if the Churches went back and read the book of Acts, and saw how the early Church used it's finances, then their message would be far more real than any fancy buildings or technology. Back then, and also originally when Tithing was commanded by God, the purpose was to provide a storehouse in which to store food etc. for those in need, or during droughts etc. In the early Church, tithes were gathered and distributed amongst the brethren as the need arose, and widows and orphans were specifically mentioned.

If I saw a Church that practised what the early church did, I would be far more inclined to accept their message. There is way too much of this wishy-washy stuff, and far too little of the practical support that believers need, IMHO.

Migracer:

i feel that the church has become too commercial

Agreed, Its just campitalism fitting in with America's love for structured worship.

I think its the Evangelical Chruches that get the most crazy with it, and have giant football arenas, with enormous gift shops out side. I don't know, that really creeps me out, but thats probably why I don't parttake in such a religion.

I feel the more commerical it gets the less of a spiritual expiricnce it becomes cause its just like your visiting Walmart instead of a house of God. I guess people must feel good seeing how many others share there beliefs in one place, praying infront of a huomgous stage with a big concert-like screen, and helping out their parrison by buying stuff in the gift shop....It ain't me ~ Rex

I think the reason a lot of churches are becoming or trying to become megachurches is because of this weird, misplaced drive to modernize.

I can see where they're coming from, and what the rationale might be for these kinds of things. "Oh, we want to spread the Word of God to as many people as possible, but how do we do that?" "Well, maybe if we make the church more fun -- y'know, if we tried to make the church a fun place to spend time generally, then maybe more people would want to spend time there on Sundays and for worship!" "Yeah, great idea! Let's get funding for a big, fugly hangar and call it a church!" (Okay, that last one was mean, but you get my drift.) So the church -- which is to say, Protestant, evangelical churches -- is trying to modernize and make itself cool and hip and stuff, and hey, if they pull in some money on the side... Great!

Now, note that this is not something I agree with. The problem with the church -- which any church -- trying to modernize in this most ridiculous of ways is that it cheapens the message they're trying to send. By adding all the trappings of modernity and the modern culture they claim to find so repellent, they're shooting themselves in the foot. Protestant, evangelical churches -- the same ones building these megachurches -- are also the ones losing the most young people, and I believe the rate of conversion has also slowed dramatically. So by trying to draw young people, they've really turned them away because the church was so distracted by trying to be "fun" and "modern" that it forgot to be meaningful.

But the megachurch phenomenon, as a method of modernization, is not the largest problem faced by Protestant churches. There's been so much infighting of late, so much ugliness and stupidity (a bishop of the church of England denied the idea of the indivisible trinity, which is one of the major tenets of Christianity) that it's becoming a sinking ship.

But this may be a good thing. The theological bases for many of these Protestant churches is, in my opinion, shaky at best, and many of the churches have practices and beliefs that I find bizarre and nonsensical (and I'm a Christian, too).

Then again, I have no idea if anything I said just now made sense, so perhaps I should shut up for the time being.

Another way of looking at it, is quite simple really. To be a Christian, literally means to be a "follower of Christ". Now, if my memory serves me correctly, Jesus Christ was not in the least bit interested in the trappings of 'mammon'. He did not have fancy clothes, did not travel in luxury, did not make people pay to listen to his message (CD's etc.), and so on. He was a simple man, with a heart for the people, particularly those who were not 'rich' or well accepted. He didn't go along to any fancy Church - in fact, he never ever in his entire life went to Church. He faithfully attended the Synagogue every Saturday (not Sunday), where he would teach the people.

It is not modernisation that Churches or Christian Religions need ~ it is to go back to it's original roots, it's hebraic roots, and those that Christ Himself taught, AND LIVED. Christianity has become so paganised that it has lost it's Truth, and yet Christians still justify this paganism. There was a time when the whole WWJD thing was popular - "What Would Jesus Do", and yet those that got into it, didn't LIVE it. What would Jesus do on a Saturday? He'd be in the Synagogue. Would Jesus celebrate Christmas or Easter? No, he'd celebrate the feasts which God had commanded, such as Passover, Firstfruits, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. And so too did the early Church, before it was paganised by the Romans, and others thereafter.

If a Christian Church had the courage to return to it's hebraic roots, and to truly following Christ, then the Message would become so much more powerful, without need for any modern trappings. IMHO, of course.

I go to a small church with only about 100 people on average, and every Sunday my pastor says that "We aren't here to get your money" and then about if we have a need in our church God will provide one way or another.

The biggest church around us is The Chapel, with over a thousand people in attendance each week, and I think that as long as they keep their message straight then there is no problem with them using money to make the church more modern.

But churches that give insentives to people who attend are not going about things right. They should be able to draw people in with their message and how they present it, not about what you get if you come

^ Yeah, my church is like that. Except we probably get a few more people each week [the whole day, not per congregation].
And they have a plate that goes around to collect money, but you don't have to put anything or a lot in. And the money is to go towards buying food for supper, and for the gardener and stuff like that. And also to buy new bibles and things like that.

Tikva:

It is not modernisation that Churches or Christian Religions need ~ it is to go back to it's original roots, it's hebraic roots, and those that Christ Himself taught, AND LIVED. Christianity has become so paganised that it has lost it's Truth, and yet Christians still justify this paganism. There was a time when the whole WWJD thing was popular - "What Would Jesus Do", and yet those that got into it, didn't LIVE it. What would Jesus do on a Saturday? He'd be in the Synagogue. Would Jesus celebrate Christmas or Easter? No, he'd celebrate the feasts which God had commanded, such as Passover, Firstfruits, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. And so too did the early Church, before it was paganised by the Romans, and others thereafter.

If a Christian Church had the courage to return to it's hebraic roots, and to truly following Christ, then the Message would become so much more powerful, without need for any modern trappings. IMHO, of course.

^This is pretty much what I said, (though I think the celebration [in moderation, avoiding as much of the corporate shit as possible] of Christmas, Easter, et cetera is justified because Jesus is, according to classical Christian teaching, a part of the trinity and therefore on a level with God and the Holy Spirit, so celebrating or remembering important parts of his life seems justifiable to me. But to each his/her own).

Virtually every time Chistianity tries to "modernize" in this way, it loses people and cheapens the truth it has to offer. This, for me, is the bottom line. It's not how big the church is, and if the money they bring in goes to paying the priest a reasonable salary, maintain the church building, and to charity, this is not the problem. It's when the message is cheapened that there's something to worry about.

On a side note: There are some very large (1000+ member) mosques in many parts of the world, some of which are connected to schools and other things like that... Are these megachurches? Does anyone on the board attend one? (I'm just wondering if this is part of the debate.)

I moved from a church of around 200 ppl to one with over 10 000. I find it to be exactly the same in general

i agree that there are a lot of churches going for the whole 'entertainment' thing. they try to make church look more appealing and fun and end up just making a mess of things, because whenever they actually get around to talking about religion, instead of the banquet, party etc. next week, they dont talk about it enough. They usually just give a very one sided view which frustrates ppl and causes them to draw even farther away from their faith.

now idk about the church that was talked about in the first post, so i can't really say anything about that, but this is just a generalization. Of course not all big churches are like that, but in my opinion just one of those 'entertainment' churches is too many

there is this mega church in my town and i went there once with my friend, and i got beat uo by the pastors son, and the pastor did drugs and got an illegal gay prostitute. I went there another time and the church was shot up. then with my other friend, i went to a local church and people were nice to me, I learned alot, and had fun.

Mindfuck:

^I agree with that, and I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination.

I can understand that churches such as Hillsong make revenue from CDs, DVDs and books. But really, is that necessary? As I said before, I'm not religious, but somehow I get the feeling that if God existed he wouldn't care how much revenue a church was making by selling songs who preach "his word", and who praise him.

I see it as being unnecessary. From what I have gathered, churches are not really meant to be businesses. At the end of the day, is that their purpose?

I completely agree, my whole family buys alot of cds and things and then drive around listening to them and in all honesty, if you listen to them, and most sermens, its not even what I would count realivant, they all say the exact same thing. Once in church we were watching an absteniense thing and this chick was saying all these sins like, if you think about being with another person not even sexually like a crush its a sin and its wrong to dream about the person you want to be with. In all honesty I think its all hypocritical.

I gave up on religion. but I'm still forced to go to church and sometimes i pay attention to what they are saying and when I do, I realize how full of it, it all is. People try to inturpert the bible and everyone has a different opinion, but the fact that guessing and claiming to be right for a profit, hpw does that differ from psychics and stuff which churches are agianst?

i thought all "organized" religions were about money. Although they do use alot of the money in helpfull ways giving away food and whatnot. alot of churches will give you gas money shelter and do pretty much anything they can. Not all churches are that way though religion is a marketing advice.

PsychedelicHorseshit:

i thought all "organized" religions were about money.

How so?

The church I go to is only about 100 people, probably less. I think the biggest church in my area has maybe 300 people. So I have no experience with these mega-churches. I don't see the point of all the cds and dvds. I mean you could just read the bible.

^ Well people often use "Organized religion" as a way to control large groups of people. and get them to believe what they want them to. And often mistreat their power over these people. With that power they often get money out of these people and at times that's the whole reason they start gathering these people to begin with, not just because they believe what they say they believe. If that makes sense.