Should lifestyle affect access to IVF?

Its _significant_ less likely that an IVF will work if you are obese. (Smoking has in no way near the same effect on fertility.)
As you specifically mentioned obesity due to hormones, I guess you have been diagnosed so.If you are obese due to hormone problem then its most likely you have a problem with your thyroid gland? If so, that is a problem that should be addressed before you even think about pregnancy. Hypothyreosis during a pregnancy has a proven negative effect on the development of the central nervous system of the featus. (Its just as bad as it sounds, CNS is brain, motorskills, well, pretty much the essentials. )

Tallulah; Schechter:

Of course there are lots of unsuitable parents in the world but saying that there should be checks on people before they get pregnant smacks of facism. There is something really wrong when the state is playing God, telling you you're too fat to be allowed to have a baby. What's next? You're a bit too ugly? or sorry, you're not intelligent enough? And why stop there? Lets wipe out disabilities and different races? The whole idea of it is utterly abhorrent to me.

My thoughts exactly. It's always scary when the government restricts access to things that should be equal because of personal characteristics. The only way I can appreciate that sort of restriction is perhaps, say, when adoption of a child is barred from a known child rapist or a certified psychopath. But otherwise...

who has the right to say, "no, you can't have this procedure because i don't agree with your life style."?
if i choose to work long hrs, are you going to tell me i have no right to become a parent? if i work in a high stress environment, are you going to tell me i can't become a parent. if i was once an addict, are you going to tell me, "oh, sure. i can trust you now. you can become a parent."? or am i screwed for life because, "once an addict always an addict."?
too much caffeine has a negative impact on the child during development. does that mean people who drink more than four cups of coffee a day can't have children. it's a slippery slope if you start barring people from undergoing a procedure they can afford and want to do.

there are always risks. it's part of the equation. it's really up to the individual and their doctor to come to the correct conclusion for themselves.

Heybaberiba:

Its _significant_ less likely that an IVF will work if you are obese. (Smoking has in no way near the same effect on fertility.)
As you specifically mentioned obesity due to hormones, I guess you have been diagnosed so.If you are obese due to hormone problem then its most likely you have a problem with your thyroid gland? If so, that is a problem that should be addressed before you even think about pregnancy. Hypothyreosis during a pregnancy has a proven negative effect on the development of the central nervous system of the featus. (Its just as bad as it sounds, CNS is brain, motorskills, well, pretty much the essentials. )

Fine if thats the case. Lets stop obese people reproducing.

It would and could never happen.

I'm being extreme, i know that, but i'm making a point.

But if you stop someone having access to IVF because they are overweight it has the same ethical overtones. As I said before, if you have paid for the NHS treatment, you shouldnt be denied it. There would be absolute uproar if athletes were refused treatment for sports injuries, or more extreme, smokers were refused treatment for lung cancer. Surely they are self induced. Not all obesity is self induced, there are a number of factors that can go into it, however, this blanket rules doesn't cover that.

What about women who are underweight? They can have the same effect on fertility and the same physical risks are present. Highly unlikely that this would ever come into play because skinny women are so much more socially acceptable than fat ones. What about women over a certain age? Say between 38-45... There are added risks for downs syndrome and other birth defects. What about the fathers? Research has said that older fathers can result in the same genetic defects as with women. Men do indeed have a biological clock too.

If they are going to discriminate against obese women (and not smokers, smokers are generally not refused treatment in the UK) then they needs to use the same rules when dealing with all other members of society.

The whole idea makes my flesh crawl. Nanny state? Big Brother? Fascist rule much?

Tallulah; Schechter:

There is something really wrong when the state is playing God, .

Is it not playing god to use IVF in the first place?

Alan Carr:

Is it not playing god to use IVF in the first place?

It's not the state who use IVF.
It's Dr's. Not all Dr's are under control of the state.

Tallulah; Schechter:

Alan Carr:

Is it not playing god to use IVF in the first place?

It's not the state who use IVF.
It's Dr's. Not all Dr's are under control of the state.

Whether it is the state or a doctor not controlled by the state, it can still be considered playing god.

Eponine:

Whether it is the state or a doctor not controlled by the state, it can still be considered playing god.

But this isnt the topic of this discussion.

We're looking at how lifestyle affects access to IVF not the ethics behind it.

Tallulah; Schechter:

But this isnt the topic of this discussion.

We're looking at how lifestyle affects access to IVF not the ethics behind it.

Just pointing out that it can be playing god either way.

I think everyone should have access to IVF regardless of their lifestyle. If they smoke or are obese it should be made clear that that increases the complications one can have.

Eponine:

I think everyone should have access to IVF regardless of their lifestyle. If they smoke or are obese it should be made clear that that increases the complications one can have.

a good doctor will talk to their patient about the risks for each individual person. but telling the women the risks and denying IVF are two completely different animals. informing the patient and the patient asking the right questions is key in any procedure.

Tallulah; Schechter:

Heybaberiba:

Its _significant_ less likely that an IVF will work if you are obese. (Smoking has in no way near the same effect on fertility.)
As you specifically mentioned obesity due to hormones, I guess you have been diagnosed so.If you are obese due to hormone problem then its most likely you have a problem with your thyroid gland? If so, that is a problem that should be addressed before you even think about pregnancy. Hypothyreosis during a pregnancy has a proven negative effect on the development of the central nervous system of the featus. (Its just as bad as it sounds, CNS is brain, motorskills, well, pretty much the essentials. )

Fine if thats the case. Lets stop obese people reproducing.

It would and could never happen.

I'm being extreme, i know that, but i'm making a point.

But if you stop someone having access to IVF because they are overweight it has the same ethical overtones. As I said before, if you have paid for the NHS treatment, you shouldnt be denied it. There would be absolute uproar if athletes were refused treatment for sports injuries, or more extreme, smokers were refused treatment for lung cancer. Surely they are self induced. Not all obesity is self induced, there are a number of factors that can go into it, however, this blanket rules doesn't cover that.

What about women who are underweight? They can have the same effect on fertility and the same physical risks are present. Highly unlikely that this would ever come into play because skinny women are so much more socially acceptable than fat ones. What about women over a certain age? Say between 38-45... There are added risks for downs syndrome and other birth defects. What about the fathers? Research has said that older fathers can result in the same genetic defects as with women. Men do indeed have a biological clock too.

If they are going to discriminate against obese women (and not smokers, smokers are generally not refused treatment in the UK) then they needs to use the same rules when dealing with all other members of society.

The whole idea makes my flesh crawl. Nanny state? Big Brother? Fascist rule much?

Are you just trolling for real or can you not see that I wrote that an untreated hypothyreosis will proabably cause the child to be stillborn?
But NOOOOO lets jump to your own conclusion and start talking about skin crawling cause someone mentions they have a medical condition that needs to be adressed before a pregnancy.

Jebsus, chill ffs.

right. Firstly, re read my post. At no point was this a personal attack on you. It was talking about the issue. It was taking an opposing view to yours but still, at no point did i even address you. Secondly, no i'm not a troll. I'm a moderator who happens to have opinions on things. Thirdly, of course i saw what you had written that's why i replied. The idea of my flesh crawling was nothing to do with the medical condition, if you read it again you'll find it's the state controlling our lives that makes me feel uneasy. It was not connected to your information about thyroid issues. If you'd read that properly it might have stopped you making a personal attack on me.
I can assure you i don't need to "chill ffs". This is a discussion forum, designed for discussion and debate. If someone takes an opposite view it doesn't mean they are attacking you, where as your post was an attack.

Heybaberiba:

Are you just trolling for real or can you not see that I wrote that an untreated hypothyreosis will proabably cause the child to be stillborn?
But NOOOOO lets jump to your own conclusion and start talking about skin crawling cause someone mentions they have a medical condition that needs to be adressed before a pregnancy.

Jebsus, chill ffs.

This is the Discussion board

You bring up a point, and someone else can state their opinion on that point. This is how dicussion works.

Heybaberiba:

She's a mod. Meaning you can disagree with her and debate with her, but I wouldn't try personally fucking with her for fun.

Tallulah; Schechter:

right. Firstly, re read my post. At no point was this a personal attack on you. It was talking about the issue. It was taking an opposing view to yours but still, at no point did i even address you. Secondly, no i'm not a troll. I'm a moderator who happens to have opinions on things. Thirdly, of course i saw what you had written that's why i replied. The idea of my flesh crawling was nothing to do with the medical condition, if you read it again you'll find it's the state controlling our lives that makes me feel uneasy. It was not connected to your information about thyroid issues. If you'd read that properly it might have stopped you making a personal attack on me.
I can assure you i don't need to "chill ffs". This is a discussion forum, designed for discussion and debate. If someone takes an opposite view it doesn't mean they are attacking you, where as your post was an attack.

Why did you quote me if you whern't talking to me?
And an "opposing view" to my post would be that... I don't know... that hypothyreosis doesn't exist maybe?
I said nothing about my personal opinion on giving medical treatments on a selective basis, yet I was quoted and carried off into a post about facist rulings.
You really don't see how that can be perceived as unnecessarily aggressive?

(Edit, installed a spellcheck )

Alan Carr:

This is the Discussion board

You bring up a point, and someone else can state their opinion on that point. This is how dicussion works.

I am well aware of that dear. Thing is, I didn't bring a point to the table, I brought a medical fact and a concern for the person who started the thread.
The quoted answer I got on this rambled on about facism and stated "Fine if that's the case. Lets stop obese people reproducing" as if I had argued that.

I see that as unnecessarily aggressive. I'm not trying to "fuck with someone for fun" as Fay states it. I reacted cause it really looks like someone answered me in a provocative and almost troll like manner.

Heybaberiba:

I am well aware of that dear. Thing is, I didn't bring a point to the table, I brought a medical fact and a concern for the person who started the thread.
The quoted answer I got on this rambled on about facism and stated "Fine if thats the case. Lets stop obese people reproducing" as if I had argued that.

I see that as unneccesarily aggresive. I'm not trying to "fuck with someone for fun" as Fay states it. I reacted cause it really lookls like someone answered me in a provocative and almost troll like manner.

It's Faye.

Tallulah hardly rambled, I'd say she replied in a very civil manner compared to the usual replies on this board. The whole point to a debate is to state your opinions, then explain why you think so. You then try to introduce ideas and proof to lend your opinion credit in the hopes that more people join your side of the debate. Being provocative is a huge part of it - you've got to rile a response out of the person you're debating with and the audience. The difference between how Tallullah engaged you and trolling is this; trolls attack personally. No where in her post did I see something that could be considered a personal insult. Plus, facism was mentioned once. I doubt that can be called a ramble.

Also, I'm quite sure that she states her knowledge that she's being "extreme". Perhaps she was merely playing Devil's Advocate and introducing a new thread of the debate rather than attacking you? I think by "opposing view" she meant that she disagreed about restricting IVF rights to obese people, not so much about your thyroid source.

A "point" is defined both as "a critical position in a course of affairs" and as "a single or separate article or item, as in an extended whole; a detail or particular". So I think a medical source could be called a point in this context.

My earlier post about "fucking" with Tallulah wasn't meant to intimidate, it was a warning. Flying off the handle and implying a mod was trolling has resulted in banning before, but luckily for everyone, Tallulah has proven to be a patient woman. I was merely trying to steer you out of cold waters, albeit with some aggressive diction.

And I apologize to anyone who finds this post un-contributing to this thread, but I do hate fights and felt I was involved.

Alright then, my point was specificly to the person who started the thread; if you have a problem with weight due to hormones, check it up cause IVF could be wasted money if you have the medical condition you claim to have.

But no worry, Faye, I dont see you as a part of a fight as I didn't see this as a fight.
I do however see a discussion board as a place where you show respect for one and other and I feel that I was answered with a presumption about what I should be thinking in a very aggresive manner. Hence my answer. I know that Tallulah is a moderator, my answer would have been the same if she wasn't.
Most boards I've been to have pretty OK moderators who doesn't moderate debates they have with other members, but let their fellow moderators do that.
So in that sense, I wasn't arguing with a moderator, but with a fellow INO.

cheers

Heybaberiba:

Alright then, my point was specificly to the person who started the thread; if you have a problem with weight due to hormones, check it up cause IVF could be wasted money if you have the medical condition you claim to have.

If you read my first post they are not even allowing my to try IVF which is why I asked the question as no doctors are giving me any other ways to try for a child or hormone replacement plus my other half and I pay in our NI and tax if they offered me to pay for ivf I'd gladly pay it or if they would let me freeze my eggs not so far I've had no choice

Heybaberiba:

Why did you quote me if you whern't talking to me?
And an "opposing view" to my post would be that... I don't know... that hypothyreosis doesn't exist maybe?
I said nothing about my personal opinion on giving medical treatments on a selective basis, yet I was quoted and carried off into a post about facist rulings.
You really don't see how that can be perceived as unnecessarily aggressive?

(Edit, installed a spellcheck )

I quoted you because I was using the information you brought to the discussion and I added to it. If you read my post properly rather than reacting badly and attacking me you would have seen I talked about underweight women and age restrictions for both mother and father. Medical issues that are not seen as important in the eyes of some health officials, even though the consequences can be the same. It was not a post about fascist ruling. I was a post about limiting the people who apply for IVF. How you interpret this as a post about fascist ruling amazes me.

No, I don't see how it can be perceived as aggressive. I was not aggressive. You flew off the handle and accused me of being a troll. Your post was aggressive.

Heybaberiba:

I am well aware of that dear. Thing is, I didn't bring a point to the table, I brought a medical fact and a concern for the person who started the thread.
The quoted answer I got on this rambled on about fascism and stated "Fine if that's the case. Lets stop obese people reproducing" as if I had argued that.

I see that as unnecessarily aggressive. I'm not trying to "fuck with someone for fun" as Fay states it. I reacted cause it really looks like someone answered me in a provocative and almost troll like manner.

If your post was intended directly for Bat 1984 then you should have directed it to her, especially if you didn't want people to comment on what you had said.

Plus, if you were discussing Bat1984's issues personally and not taking part in the discussion, this is not the place for that. Personal questions or PM is a better suggestion. As you posted in the discussion forum I assumed, as does everyone else, that your comment was open for a reply.

I didn't "ramble" on about fascism. Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us? "ramble"? As I have explained before, I was referring to my distaste for a nanny state. I have already explained this to you, and yet you seem to not read what I am saying, choosing to pick out your own explanations and continuing to attack me in this thread.

The part of my post about stopping obese people reproducing was deliberately acute. If you had read the next two lines you would know that. It said;

my post:

It would and could never happen.

I'm being extreme, i know that, but I'm making a point.

It was not aggressive. It was not an attack on you. I qualified everything I said straight afterwards in the follow up lines.

And again, you refer to my behaviour as "troll-like". And you don't see this as a personal attack. Which may I remind you, regardless of my status here, is against the rules of INO. It says in the rules;

the rules:

We expect respect on this website.
For everyone here, whether you are a n00b, a long time poster, a moderator or admin. Everyone deserves respect. Treat others as you would expect to be treated. If you do that, there should be no problems. Half the problems that occur on this site are because people do not respect each other. Keep that in mind and think before you post. If you don't have anything nice to say keep your mouth shut or rather, your fingers off the keys.

I have not disrespected you.

Your attack on me by calling me a troll is totally out of order. The definition I found was this;

what is a troll:

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Is this really how you think I have behaved? I have only posted on this message board with the intention of causing an argument. I give up so much of my free time to moderate this place and to stop this kind of behaviour and yet you think I was dead-set on behaving in that way myself. Can you see why I am offended?

My post was part of the discussion, It was using your information and adding to it. I am not happy that twice now you have felt it is acceptable to refer to me as a troll.