Pledge of Allegiance

MCR Rocks:

Audrey Hepburn.:

Beeblebrox:

Domo;;:

I'm not going to promise my loyalty to any country.

That's your choice, but that's kind of sad. It's also kind of an insult to people who pledge their lives for you country so it can be free. These people risk their lives and die for you to have the freedoms you have. To promise loyalty to your country is upholding those freedoms.

We have freedom. For the time being.
Our government can take that away at any moment.

actually they cant in the bill of rights and the declaration of indepence clearly says we have freedom and justice and because of this they cant just take it away

People put so much trust in that.
You really think a bunch of writing is going to stop them?

Fezzik:

^That writing has the force of the American population behind it, so as long as people are aware of politics and take as simple an action as writing their Congressman when they see a problem, then yes, a bunch of writing is going to stop them.

You just don't get it. If the government wants to do something, there's nothing we can do to stop them.
We have too little power, and they too much.
We'd never get through to them. If it benefits them, of course they're going to do it, even if it means sacrificing a country's freedom. It doesn't matter. Think of Hitler. An army couldn't even stop him.

Fezzik:

^Our government (assuming your American) isn't designed to work like that. If the government wants to do something, it has to pass it through Congress. Congress is made up of representatives elected by the people. As long as people elect good Congressmen and women who represent their ideals, our freedoms will be protected. It's only when people don't bother to vote, don't care who gets into office, don't take interest in what's happening in their government, and give up on changing their country that politicians take advantage of their power at the cost of the people.
In theory, at least, Americans have all the power - politician's livelihood depends on people's votes and approval. We are, essentially, their boss. If we're not happy, they get booted out - unless, of course, people are too uneducated in politics or just plain too lazy to take action.

Basic 3rd grade history, I know.
It may be designed to work like that, but the government could turn on us. Overnight it could become communist if it would somehow benefit them.
But right now, the single word 'freedom' is drawing more and more people to the US, and thus paying them more in tax payer's dollars.
Hypothetically, if the government did go communist, and if some good member of congress decides against this, they could kill him off.
Stage it.
Simple as, right? For the president, FBI, political party and the like, it is. Very simple. They can get away with pretty much anything.

Caitlin Caustic;;:

Not to be nitpicky but I think the word you mean is totalitarian, not communist.

That having been said, it does take time to do these things--revolutions and takeovers don't happen overnight. If you haven't yet, read nimal Farm by George Orwell, it illustrates how governments can take rights away pretty well--gradually. The response to this is citizen vigilance and the will to take everything with a grain of salt.

Oh. . .yeah.
I love that book though. That is what I was trying to get at. Thanks. Sometimes I have trouble putting my thoughts into words.
But I didn't mean literelly overnight.

Fezzik:

Well, yes, of course revolution is possible - it's possible in any government. But communism, fascism, forms of government like that - they just don't happen in happy countries. Not to say that America is happy-go-lucky, especially at this point in time, but people usually don't turn to communism or fascist leaders unless they're desperately poor and being severely mistreated by their government (think Germany after World War I, czarist Russia, etc.). Which shouldn't happen in America, because of the whole government "for the people by the people" thing. And, as Caitlin pointed out, revolution takes time. So, while the possibility of some leader coming in and taking all our freedoms away is always there, it's not like it's going to happen tomorrow - or even, assuming America doesn't totally degrade into a country of politically oblivious, in our (or at least our parents') lifetime.

So, you're saying this could possibly happen?
Yes. (And by the way, I didn't mean literally overnight.)
And we're back to my original post.
I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to any government. Maybe that wasn't exactly it, but that's what I was trying to get across.
I can't trust a buch of men and women who make up a lying, greedy political party. These things could happen. Not to say they will. But you get my point, right?

Fezzik:

Well, yes, of course revolution is possible - it's possible in any government. But communism, fascism, forms of government like that - they just don't happen in happy countries. Not to say that America is happy-go-lucky, especially at this point in time, but people usually don't turn to communism or fascist leaders unless they're desperately poor and being severely mistreated by their government (think Germany after World War I, czarist Russia, etc.). Which shouldn't happen in America, because of the whole government "for the people by the people" thing. And, as Caitlin pointed out, revolution takes time. So, while the possibility of some leader coming in and taking all our freedoms away is always there, it's not like it's going to happen tomorrow - or even, assuming America doesn't totally degrade into a country of politically oblivious, in our (or at least our parents') lifetime.

So, you're saying this could possibly happen?
Yes. (And by the way, I didn't mean literally overnight.) And I'm not against American government, I'm not against government period, but I'm simply saying that the freedom we have is not up to us. It's up to the government.

Fezzik:

^Of course it's a possibility.
But it is up to us - the government isn't some untouchable force that controls our life but cannot be affected by us. I won't go into my whole basis-of-democracy spiel again, but revolution would come from the people, and it would come from leaders who would get into power through our existing government before any sort of coup (America is not so revolution-vulnerable that the government could be overthrown by force without any groundwork first). Which brings us back to the civic duty thing - such leaders couldn't get into power unless we let them.

Have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? Not to say that the leaders of America will kill all fellow feeling and the like, but it was something that was not seen by the people.
Whatever the government wanted them to believe, they believed or they died. I'm not implying that this is going to happen, all I'm saying is that the government could change the type of government they are.
Who better to change that then themselves?
They don't have to consult the people, even though that's how it should work. They could change our government from democracy to, say, totalitarian. Just by making unnoticable changes here and there. Changes that don't neccesarily have to pass through congress if everyone keeps quiet.
. . .I am in no way saying this is going to happen. The odds ae extremely low. I'm just trying to prove my point that I don't want to pledge my allegiance to something I cannot trust.

Audrey Hepburn.:

I'm not implying that this is going to happen, all I'm saying is that the government could change the type of government they are.
Who better to change that then themselves?
They don't have to consult the people, even though that's how it should work. They could change our government from democracy to, say, totalitarian. Just by making unnoticable changes here and there. Changes that don't neccesarily have to pass through congress if everyone keeps quiet.
. . .I am in no way saying this is going to happen. The odds ae extremely low. I'm just trying to prove my point that I don't want to pledge my allegiance to something I cannot trust.

But that's why people need to be aware and involved in their government. Our government couldn't slip into totalitarianism so discreetly that your average person wouldn't notice.

And the Pledge doesn't pledge allegiance to the United States government, flat out, no matter what - it says "I pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands, one nation...indivisible with liberty and justice for all." If America evolved into a non-republican government that had no intention of being just to its citizens, the pledge would be void (not that its in anyway binding to begin with, but you know what I mean). The Pledge pledges allegiance to a republican America with liberty and justice for all, not any other kind of America. That's why I don't take issue with it.

Fezzik:

Audrey Hepburn.:

I'm not implying that this is going to happen, all I'm saying is that the government could change the type of government they are.
Who better to change that then themselves?
They don't have to consult the people, even though that's how it should work. They could change our government from democracy to, say, totalitarian. Just by making unnoticable changes here and there. Changes that don't neccesarily have to pass through congress if everyone keeps quiet.
. . .I am in no way saying this is going to happen. The odds ae extremely low. I'm just trying to prove my point that I don't want to pledge my allegiance to something I cannot trust.

But that's why people need to be aware and involved in their government. Our government couldn't slip into totalitarianism so discreetly that your average person wouldn't notice.

And the Pledge doesn't pledge allegiance to the United States government, flat out, no matter what - it says "I pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands, one nation...indivisible with liberty and justice for all." If America evolved into a non-republican government that had no intention of being just to its citizens, the pledge would be void (not that its in anyway binding to begin with, but you know what I mean). The Pledge pledges allegiance to a republican America with liberty and justice for all, not any other kind of America. That's why I don't take issue with it.

I've been defeated.
You're right, but I'm still not pledging my allegiance to any government. It's not just the American government.
. . .You win.

I really wouldn't care, cause i for one don't really believe in the pledge becase there isnt' "liberty and justice for all" . But if they made us say it in spanish, french, german, i wouldn't care.

I don't really think you should have to say it in any language, if you don't want to, really. For instance, at every 4-H meeting my club has, the kids have to stand up, face the flag, put a hand over their hearts, and recite it. I'm the president of the club, but I make a point by standing and facing the flag, but not crossing my heart or reciting the words, which is my decision. If the other kids want to or don’t want to, whatever, that’s their decision as well, not mine.

What really bugs me about it, though, is the ‘under God’ part. I tend to lean more towards Atheism than anything, so…you know, kind of self-explanatory. :s

Wow, that's kind of disturbing. I imagine he wrote it the way he did for a reason (well, duh) after all.

It annoys me on other things, too; coins, paper currency...but that's another issue, so I'll stop now. Heh...

I remember being in elementary school when we had to say the Pledge every morning, and I asked my teacher why, once. She told me something like "Because we have to, and because we're American." I asked her what would happen if a kid didn't want to and she just laughed and said it didn't matter, we had to. Meanwhile, I felt sorry for the Australian kid who sat behind me, who was new that year. I just don't think that's right, that kids should have to say it, though I don't know if most schools still require it.