| Author | Message |
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 22nd, 2008 at 08:52am |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 22nd, 2008 at 09:15am
ahaha omg im so sorry i thought you were a girl .. ooops/.
maybe you shoulda put up that gender thing ayy 
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 22nd, 2008 at 10:11am Migatron.:
i don't think it should be put up to hate crime status, the way i see it is its just assault with a motive thats all. and if it should hold a longer sentenced you'd have to make a law that outlines the various subcultures then you'd have to keep renewing it to meet the demands of changing subcultures. and if you left it to just "Subcultures" without specifying it in the law any prosecutor could say they're part of
one and not have to prove it and push for a longer sentence, with race crimes its easy to identify races.
and okay you got me there your not just the run of the mill white girl that i encounter most of them that i meet happen to think just because they where black and whine about being abused cos their emo means that they have suffered as bad as people who are of a different ethnicity, even though i don't believe you display this i think people who do really should stop taking this subculture idea so seriously.
Most assault has some sort of motive, be it a mugging, or rape. Very rarely does a person go up to someone else, and beat the shit out of them for no reason. I think that because we have been given freedom of speech, we should be allowed to express our opinions on music, political parties, anything, as long as it doesn't directly threaten anyone, or is derogatory to ethnic groups or liberal branches of religions, in the way we dress. (I say liberal branches of religions, because a lot of very ordinary things can offend more devout or even extremist branches.) |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 22nd, 2008 at 11:49am
i dont think the way someone dresses should be raised up to the same kind of treatment as someones religion or ethnicity, after all like i said you can change clothes.
exactly the motiv was because they were of a different subculture not because of a different race because hate crimes are usually supposed to involve races ethnic cultures clashing.
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 22nd, 2008 at 02:37pm I think it's still a hate crime, because you are attacking someone because you hate something about them. I think that people shouldn't have to change what they chose to do just because other people want them to. Perhaps, not as strong a sentence as a race crime, but it should still be punishable, as a seperate crime. Prosecutors could claim that their client was part of a certain subculture, but it would be pretty clear, by photos taken after the incident, whether or not they were targetted because they looked different. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 22nd, 2008 at 05:43pm
But everyone looks different. who is the law to set boundaries as to whos eligible to be considered a person of a subculture. considering most judges dont even know what emo is and really are not bothered with learning such new fangled ideas. its just a waste of time if regular laws do the job already.
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 23rd, 2008 at 04:05am ^ but what about Sophie Lancaster, who was beaten to death when she protected her boyfriend who was being beaten for being a goth. The people who attacked them, one of them has got 16 years, and the other 18. Considering they are 15, and 16 respectivley, that isn't even a life sentence. Had they attacked her because she was black, they would've got longer. And they did attacke her and her boyfriend because they were goths, they called to their mates "There's two moshers nearly dead up Bacup park - you wanna see them - they're a right mess."
article |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 23rd, 2008 at 04:33am
ive already adressed this in a different post. from ages back in a similar topic. yeah the situation was bad but all in all it was just an assault and shouldnt be eleveted to hate crime status because hatecrimes mostly deal with racial and cultural matters.
so what if they were goths would they have been goths five yeras ago ?
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 23rd, 2008 at 04:42am ^ probably, yes.
The point is, should hate crimes include that sort of thing? I think it should, because it's killing someone because they look different. I know they can change it, but I don't think anyone should have to. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 23rd, 2008 at 10:33am
yeah well if you know that its going to cause you some harm isnt the obvious thing to do not to do it. i mean i used to do woodwork in like middleschool and i wore canvas sneakers around the place instead of steel cap boots. sure they looked rad but obviously wearing them was going to do me some harm so i really should have worn the steel caps. ..
follow me ?
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IceHog69
Bulletproof Heart
Age: 31
Gender: -
Posts: 25232 | May 23rd, 2008 at 10:52am ^ yes, but the point is, it shouldn't cause harm. It shouldn't be dangerous to wear what you want in society. Woodwork, it's slightly different, cause you can try to prevent getting hurt, ie, try not drop stuff etc, and if you do drop something, no one can do anything about it. But walking down the street wearing what ever you want shouldn't be dangerous, because people don't have to attack you, they chose to. I mean, the chisel doesn't decide, 'you know what, I think I'm going to launch myself through the air at that kids foot', but the guy in the street does think 'I'm gonna beat that sh*t up'. I think tougher sentencing would be a slight deterent. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 23rd, 2008 at 11:00am
yeah but if you know its going to provoke someone why dont you not put the blame against society and realise thats the way things are and maybe tone it down. noones asking people to conform people are just asking you to be smart about things
just like when people walk down dark alleys they dont expect to be raped or assaulted but it happens anways doesnt it, so why walk down the dark alley if you know its going to happen . common sense tells you not to go down it but you do it anyways just for the sake of " freedom".
a tougher sentance would not be a slight deterrence. a tougher sentance probably wouldnt even be imposed by judges. judges would just look at two things whether a) if the offence had anything to do with race b) the severity of the crime. because those are the two things that judges generally relly on to make a decision about if a person deserves to be punished.
and considering judges are 60 + years old alot of them dont even know what an emo is so why would they impose a law on a concept that they find ludicrus ? it just makes sense for them to stick to whats solid and thats race and culture. not on something that shifts like subcultures.
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Simple and Clean
Salute You in Your Grave
Age: 30
Gender: Female
Posts: 2616 | May 24th, 2008 at 08:03am I'm with Chipmunk on this one.
Referring back to the sophie Lancaster case, she would probably still be alive if she dressed like her attackers. It is a hate crime, because they decided to attack her and Rob because of the way they looked.
To say that it is less serious than someone who was attacked because of their race doens't make sense to me. Either way the people are attacked because of something about the way they look. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 24th, 2008 at 09:20am
yeah. no hate crimes usually arnt just about the way they look
thats just superficial
its about someones orientation be it ethnicity or sexuality. or gender. thingst hat you cant help that someone hates you for. thats why its so serious.
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Mindfuck
Always Born a Crime
Age: -
Gender: Female
Posts: 5614 | May 24th, 2008 at 09:45am Maybe a definition is in order, just to clear up confusion about what hate crimes are;
A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.
Source; here.
So, for the most part, Migatron / MigRacer is right . Hate crimes usually go beyond the superficial exterior such as clothes or hair colour or piercings and whatnot.
So, legally, a hate crime wouldn't include discrimination of someone dressed as a goth, emo, prep etc., but that doesn't mean it's any less serious. People getting bashed for any reason is hideous. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 24th, 2008 at 10:08am
But i dont think it should carry a more severe penalty than a regular assault.
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Mindfuck
Always Born a Crime
Age: -
Gender: Female
Posts: 5614 | May 24th, 2008 at 10:37am No, it shouldn't. But in my opinion, I don't think it should have any less of a penalty, either. It may not be a hate crime according to the law, but it is still assault, and in the case of Sophie Lancaster, it was murder. How can you justify murdering someone for being 'gothic'? And assaulting / murdering someone for no reason other than the way they look superficially is still quite wrong, to say the least. |
Thug Life.
Bleeding on the Floor
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1315 | May 24th, 2008 at 11:11am
i understand that its wrong. i just think its impractical putting a bigger sentance on it is all
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Faye Merci
Salute You in Your Grave
Age: -
Gender: -
Posts: 4473 | May 26th, 2008 at 05:39pm While it does suck when people get targeted for being the way they are, it's nothing new. you choose to look a certain way, you have to accept the fact that someone isn't going to like it.
Think about it. This kind of thing has been happening for ages. Some examples of people who fought just because of what they liked and how they dressed:
The HJ and Swing Kids
Mods and Rockers
Socs and Greasers
Zoots and Sailors
Emos and "Jocks"
It's just something natural, I'm afraid. The only thing you can do is let that kind of ignorance stay out of your mind, and try to accept people no matter how they dress or what they look like, but for who they are.
*as a disclaimer, since I'm probably going to get attacked, I don't condone violence towards anyone, especially not for something as stupid as "looking emo". That kind of thing seems to me to be utterly ignorant and immoral.
The point I'm trying to state is that this is a pretty human thing to do. As soon as you get two people together, they're going to notice their differences. It's human nature. So, while beating people may seem wrong, it is a human thing. We tend to be scared of what we don't know, as a survival thing. Back when we were cavemen, this probably worked out fine. However, in today's society, prejudice has no place. What we need to realize is that it won't ever go away, and that we're not going to be able to live in a world where everyone gets along and loves each other. It's not human.
What we can do is try our hardest to be kind and accepting. I think the only thing you can do about this sort of thing is educate others and try to stop ignorance. The more people you get to understand the concept of "different does not equal bad", the more you're helping this world.
My honest opinion, anyways. |
XMaliceInWonderlandX
Killjoy
Age: 32
Gender: Female
Posts: 62 | May 26th, 2008 at 06:25pm It's just pecking order. It's natural for humans to organize themselves into little groups and cliques to avoid feeling part of the 'outcast' group, where they would be teased and beat up and whatnot.
The same thing that happened in Melbourne is happening in Mexico right now. I hate stereotyping, but you really can't help it. When you see someone walk into a room, its just first instinct to judge by appearance. =/
At SuperCon, this weekend, a bunch of rednecks beat up the people enjoying the Con. I found that disgusting. It's a fucking social gathering, people are having the time of their lives, and we enjoy being different and a little crazy, they have no right to do anything about it.
I may despise rap music, but I'm not going to take a swing at 50 Cent or Lil' Kim because they're rappers, and I'm not going to punch someone who's listening to rap. I don't care. They might even hate emo and rock music. Everyone has their own opinion. So shh.
-Malice- |
