Animal Testing/Abuse/cruelty

mindfuck.:

Just because it may be in conflict with what you believe it doesn't mean it's automatically propaganda. All she was doing was expressing her side of the coin.

But it does say exactly the same thing as what animal charities spout to try and get people over to their side. It personally sounds like propaganda to me... Not that I mean Lovesick Melody means to use it in that way, but it does come across as the charities/whomever it may be opinion.

But I'm trying to do it in an non-emotional way. I'm trying to get across why I think the way I do, I'm not actually bothered with changing anyone's mind.

I just don't like the tug at the heart strings approach is all.

No I get that, sorry. I'm going all science girl.

I'm not trying to be aggressive either, sorry if I come across that way sometimes! Partly I get frustrated with myself cos I can't get my point across the way I want too, then am worried it will get taken the wrong way! lol

mindfuck.:

Heybaberiba:

There is a word for your post Lovesick Melody: Propaganda.

Just because it may be in conflict with what you believe it doesn't mean it's automatically propaganda. All she was doing was expressing her side of the coin.

And her "side of the coin" was propagandapictures.

^^
I was using pictures to help get my point across. I was expressing an opinion, if you cannot handle that and/or start attacking other members then please don't post.
I really do not appreciate your remarks.

Firegarder:

Now, on your earlier post....


"I don't think we are more important or superior than any other animal on the planet, we all have the same right to live here and to live how we would naturally. But I see no reason why humans shouldn't use our abilities to help our species?"

Okay, first, that sentence is contradicting itself.
Secondly, if you don't think we are not superior in any way, then why would we use our abilities (testing animals) in inhumane ways and let other animals suffer for our health?
Living naturally is not what we are doing. We are probably the most unnatural species in the whole world!


"The vast majority of animals used are domestic, they wouldn't even exist without us, and they couldn't exist now without us either."

Domestic animals are domestic because we made them domestic.
They can survive without us and they would exist. Wolf packs? Those are of the dog family and not domesticated.
Andean Mountain Cat? A species of small cat that is undomesticated.
The only reason we domesticated them is because a) for their uses in hunting and other tasks and b) for companionship.
And you said before that you loved your pets. Would you let them be tested on for scientific purposes?
Would you be willing to risk their lives?


"Are you willing to let thousands of people suffer or die to save a few cuddly animals?"

I'm not going to lie, this was a hard question to answer.
But I still stick to my beliefs, no animals should suffer.
It necessary use human models, ones that actually agree to the testing.


"What if a member of your family was ill? There is a new potential cure, but it's new to science, and there are no computer models that can tell you how the substance will react in the human body? Would it be ok to use animals then?"

No computer models to tell how it would react in the human body?
Why would we use animals if a better example would be humans?
Now you could argue that this is inhumane for people, but these people have to agree to do scientific testing.
They willfully go into these situations with approval, while animals cannot speak for themselves and say no.
So to answer your question, No, it would not be okay to use animals.


"Do you refuse to use medical treatments that have been tested on animals?"

I am not an expert in medicines used on animals, but if I knew that those animals were tested and that cruelty was exhibited then yes, I would refuse.
I will not put those poor animals lives in front of my health.

I did say I wouldn't be able to answer that sort of question without sounding like a hypocrite or contradicting myself! lol Thats what that sort of question is designed to do.

"if you don't think we are not superior in any way, then why would we use our abilities (testing animals) in inhumane ways and let other animals suffer for our health?
Living naturally is not what we are doing. We are probably the most unnatural species in the whole world!"

Um... I don't actually know how to answer that one! I don't know why we wouldn't? A lion kills and eats what some people might call an inferior animal to the lion as it's the prey. It's doing it for it's survival. And we do animal testing for our survival. Kinda like that, but I find it hard to explain.

How are we living unnaturally? Is that because we are no longer living in a cave storing berries for the winter? We've learnt to build incredible strcutures/shelters for ourselves to live in. Which seems like a natural way to behave to me.

I am very aware of where domestic animals have come from. Yes wolves and cats would exist, and yes they are still the same species really, but domestic animals are not the same. They were bred for our use. They wouldn't exist in the present form. All though this seems kinda irrelevant to the argument now! lol

My pets? This seems kinda irrelevant to me, it's not something that would ever happen. But it might depend on the situaton I suppose. I mean, if you said you were going to test the effects of smoking on my pets, I wouldn't let you. If you told me that giving up one of my pets would cure a type of cancer, then yeh I think I'd give my pet up... Hard to say though.

Why would we use animals if a better example would be humans?
Now you could argue that this is inhumane for people, but these people have to agree to do scientific testing.

Treatments are tested on humans before they are accepted to go into general use. But it is a legal requirement to test them on animals first. At least then you can get an idea if anything is going to be harmful before you hurt someone. Yes you have volunteers that sign a release to have these things tested on them, but I bet you these people expect that the experimental treatment they are being given is very unlikely to harm them cos it's already been tested.

I am not an expert in medicines used on animals, but if I knew that those animals were tested and that cruelty was exhibited then yes, I would refuse.
I will not put those poor animals lives in front of my health.

Are you aware that it is a legal requirement at the moment that all medicines have to be tested on animals before they go through to human testing? And the lethal dose has to be determined too.

Lovesick Melody:

While you might "really not appreciate my remarks", what you posted was propaganda.
What is propaganda?
Well, to quote a few descriptions:

Quote

The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person.

You aired your opinion, by all means do so. But you tried supporting "a fact" with a propaganda picture and that is plain wrong. If you want to argue against the statement that most lab animals are treated good these days; do so with facts, not propaganda.

Now, I wouldn't dare even dreaming of telling you to stop posting or accusing you of attacking other members just cause you question other peoples posts or opinions, I expect the same from you.

I am up for animal testing if it is fpr medical reasons. But if it is for reasons like cosmetics, i don't support it. I believe that testing for medical reasons are necessary. I know that it is "evil' to test animals but i think we have to choose the lesser evil. Between saving lives of the terminally ill and hurting some animals, i believe the latter is the less evil

Well, I have aired my opinion about something. And that is kinda what we all do here. That is something we can all do without calling it "propaganda".
My opinion that lab animals are treated rather well in my country is something I base on the rules my friends have to go through. (Using transgenic mice and fruit flies in their research.)
Therefore I did kinda see it as insulting when I was told it was wrong and the proof for that was the picture you posted. There is some basic things missing. When is it taken? Where is it taken? By whom is it taken? During what procedure is it taken?
Without facts like that supporting the picture its propaganda i.e. emotional manipulation.
Yes, I see a big difference between airing an opinion and trying to emotionally manipulate people into supporting your opinion.

I am part of the PETA2 street team. so you can probably guess that Im going to say that I beleive animal abuse/cruelty is wrong.

People dont understand animals have feelings too and they can all feel pain. I simply find it sickening because kids in my class think im a freak because i believe in this stuff. I dont believe animals should be tested on, because what makes us look younger/improves our skin is killing innocent animals.
They have feelings too, and (going to say a quick religious thing...dont mind it) God created animals to be loved, not to be torured.

The way I see this, is so what if a couple animals get cosmetics tested on them, when we kill millions for food? I know some of you would consider this propaganda, but has anyone seen the KFC chicken videos? To me, that's more disturbing than animals being used to test medicine. So, I think it's a little hypocritical if you eat meat and are against animal testing. That being said, I think the planet (including animals and humans) would benefit more if everyone became vegetarian rather than stopping testing.

I watched the "Bloody Burberry" videoes.
5 seconds into that video, I had to stop it because it was so sick.
What KFC does to animals. I swaer to God I almost threw up. Thats what caused me to go veg.

ChipmunkOnKetamine:

I think that animal testing is necessary for medicines, but not for cosmetics. I think it is wrong to test something unneccessary on animals, especially when there are other ways of testing cosmetics. I do not use any make up tested on animals.

Medicines is a different matter, as people will die without the medicines, and the animals are bred for it anyway. Until there is an efficient, safe, reliable alternative, I will continue to use medicines tested on animals.

I dont like testing on chimps, but it may be neccesssary, and in that case then I will reluctantly be convinsed.

If it's necessary, why don't we test on humans?

Nothing against you, it's just whenever people use that as an excuse for testing for medicines is okay I wonder. Why is it okay we test on animals? Because they can't speak?

Yes, what the person said above me is right. Why don't we test on humans? We are the ones that are going to take the medicine anyway. Animals aren't like us and they don't have the same systems we have. Animals also shouldn't be killed for our tastebuds.

They do test on humans, they are just tested on animals first so they don't seriously harm someone.

I still don't see how we are living unnaturally. The food doesn't just spring up in supermarket shelves, there are people that have to raise it and put it there, we pay therm for their work so that we have time to work on other things. Should farming have never begun in your eyes? And this is a random question, but are you happy living like this? Are you planning to go live in the woods and catch your own food? Part of evolution and natural selection is that animals have to make sure they take in more energy than they consume, we've jsut been able to do it in a more extreme way. The invention of farming has allowed us to do incredible things in other places. Without farming, there would be no arts. Music like we do it is definately not natural! lol

I wouldn't let the effects of smoking be tested on my pets because it wouldn't achieve anything. People will smoke regardless of whether it is good or bad for them, so testing it on my pets and then telling people it's bad won't help anyone or change anything.


No I am not aware of that, but as I said before, if I know that animal cruelty has been exhibited, then no. I will not use it.

Do you check every medicine you've been given to find this out?

Heybaberiba:

Well, I have aired my opinion about something. And that is kinda what we all do here. That is something we can all do without calling it "propaganda".
My opinion that lab animals are treated rather well in my country is something I base on the rules my friends have to go through. (Using transgenic mice and fruit flies in their research.)
Therefore I did kinda see it as insulting when I was told it was wrong and the proof for that was the picture you posted. There is some basic things missing. When is it taken? Where is it taken? By whom is it taken? During what procedure is it taken?
Without facts like that supporting the picture its propaganda i.e. emotional manipulation.
Yes, I see a big difference between airing an opinion and trying to emotionally manipulate people into supporting your opinion.

And I am in complete agreement with this post!!

Pictures cannot be used as evidence if you cannot tell us this things. Which I was going to say in my next post but you got there first!

I also hate how people like your friends are working so hard on research, doing things that could help other people and change things for the better, but all people can see are the mice they are using. And will probably hate them for it. But then are most likely happy to use the results of their work without even realising.

Firegarder:

I still don't see how we are living unnaturally. The food doesn't just spring up in supermarket shelves, there are people that have to raise it and put it there, we pay therm for their work so that we have time to work on other things. Should farming have never begun in your eyes? And this is a random question, but are you happy living like this? Are you planning to go live in the woods and catch your own food? Part of evolution and natural selection is that animals have to make sure they take in more energy than they consume, we've jsut been able to do it in a more extreme way.

What I see as unnatural is "factory farming". That's how the majority of the animals used for food are raised. As for catching my own food, that's when I'd be vegetarian.