Religion

Bloodraine:

Suzical the Musical.:

Just a question:

How many of you people have read the Bible yet?

I have.
Skim read, true, but still.

I actually only began to read the bible after I converted to atheism, so again another reason to disprove atheistic 'ignorance' claims. I wanted to find out for myself what the bible was, not just grow up thinking it was either good (from my christian upbringing) or bad (from my atheist coversion).

my mom is cristian, dad catholic, but he converted to christian, therefore im christian. i dont belive in all of the christian religion though. gay marragies are good, i dont pray often, i never go to church, i havent read the bible (tried to but never went through) and i REALLY dont belive that if your not a christian you go to hell. so im not really sure of what religian i want to be. my parents dont want me to convert (im only 13) and im not that religious at all.

Suzical the Musical.:

Just a question:

How many of you people have read the Bible yet?

I've read bits of it in RE classes and hotel rooms. I haven't got the stamina to read it cover to cover. I particularly enjoyed Leviticus- the most hilarious book in the Bible. I just found it really funny, especially when my mum read it in a Monty Python voice.

I'm sorta agonistic. First of all, how do we know that God told us to do this and that. Next, how come the Church controlls virtually every aspect? Doesn't it get rid of the freedom related with religion?

Suzical the Musical.:

Here's a verse that I looked up that I thought might help our discussion...
_________________________
Matthew 19:13-22

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get etrenal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
*Jesus lists the commandments*
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What still do I lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the man heard this, he went away sad, for he had great wealth.

That's before all the crucifixion crap.
Now all we have to do is believe in God, yadda yadda.
And I'm really glad.
I could NEVER earn my way into heaven.

FlamingXbaby:

That's before all the crucifixion crap.
Now all we have to do is believe in God, yadda yadda.
And I'm really glad.
I could NEVER earn my way into heaven.

Why did the rules change?

My Religion class was having this discussion a while back:

If euthanasia and suicide are bad, why was it okay for Jesus to do it?

I mean, essentially, Jesus knew he was going to die [I'm talking about what it refers to in the bible...] so why didn't he stop it? If it's a sin to commit suicide, why was it okay for Jesus to do it? I mean, essentially, what he was doing was considered suicide. Aren't we meant to live by his examples? Why is it okay for a man, apparently the son of god, to preach one thing, and then do another? Not that it is any different today in the same Organized Religion.

Thing is, Jesus /didn't/ know.

If he did know, then why would his last words be, "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

Ella falls from grace:

My Religion class was having this discussion a while back:

If euthanasia and suicide are bad, why was it okay for Jesus to do it?

I mean, essentially, Jesus knew he was going to die [I'm talking about what it refers to in the bible...] so why didn't he stop it? If it's a sin to commit suicide, why was it okay for Jesus to do it? I mean, essentially, what he was doing was considered suicide. Aren't we meant to live by his examples? Why is it okay for a man, apparently the son of god, to preach one thing, and then do another? Not that it is any different today in the same Organized Religion.

Jesus was murdered, not enagaged in voluntary euthanasia.
He couldn't stop it, because God wanted his only son to be a sacrifice, to save the souls of mankind and that is why he did it. Jesus was killed by the romans, murder, non voluntary death. Suicide is where you want to die, he didn't.

Resignation:

Thing is, Jesus /didn't/ know.

If he did know, then why would his last words be, "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

Untrue. He knew he was going to die, he knew he had to give up his life to "save" the souls of the rest of human kind. Yes, he said "Father, why have you forsaken me", but that doesn't mean he didn't already know what was to happen. If it were a shock, don't you think he would have put up more of a fight?

Bloodraine:

Jesus was murdered, not enagaged in voluntary euthanasia.
He couldn't stop it, because God wanted his only son to be a sacrifice, to save the souls of mankind and that is why he did it. Jesus was killed by the romans, murder, non voluntary death. Suicide is where you want to die, he didn't.

But in a sense, he did want to die. He died to save the souls of mankind, as I previously stated. So why, which has been my question all along, is it okay for that kind of "non voluntary suicide"? Jesus was only a man, and even if he wasn't, he was at least half human. So if human instinct tells us to fight for our lives, when Jesus didn't and he knew he was going to die, doesn't that, in a sense, count as a form of suicide?

I'm not trying to target anyone or anything here. It was purly a topic I thought could be disscussed. I'm not taking either side on this debate here, I'm just giving you the side you obviously haven't thought about yet.

Ella falls from grace:

Bloodraine:

Jesus was murdered, not enagaged in voluntary euthanasia.
He couldn't stop it, because God wanted his only son to be a sacrifice, to save the souls of mankind and that is why he did it. Jesus was killed by the romans, murder, non voluntary death. Suicide is where you want to die, he didn't.

But in a sense, he did want to die. He died to save the souls of mankind, as I previously stated. So why, which has been my question all along, is it okay for that kind of "non voluntary suicide"? Jesus was only a man, and even if he wasn't, he was at least half human. So if human instinct tells us to fight for our lives, when Jesus didn't and he knew he was going to die, doesn't that, in a sense, count as a form of suicide?

I'm not trying to target anyone or anything here. It was purly a topic I thought could be disscussed. I'm not taking either side on this debate here, I'm just giving you the side you obviously haven't thought about yet.

Obviously haven't though about?.
Ok...well, I guess all that time we spent talking about it in RE doesn't count.

Do you actually have evidence to say he wanted to die?.
If you go and read Mr 15:34, It actually states that he didn't want to die, remember also in gethsemane, how much doubt was going through his mind?. He didn't want to do it in the beginning, but he had to, because God wanted him to. God made the choice to sacrifice him, Jesus had serious doubts. He went through with it in the end (although in the end is debatable) because he knew it was for the greater good. He couldn't have stopped it, anyway. The romans would have crucified him whether he wanted to die or not, and he couldn't have stopped that. Jesus wasn't a deity, he was just a man, without the will of God to stop him being killed he couldn't stop it.

There is also no such thing as Non voluntary suicide, thats actually an oxymoron.

Jesus knew he was going to die because that was God's Plan. The Romans murdered him; they followed this Plan. Whether or not you think Jesus had a say in his death depends on whether or not you believe in free will.

"Jesus was only a man" is a non-Christian idea so it's difficult to work with that logic when thinking about his death. According to the Bible, Jesus was God made flesh. So he is basically God but in human form. Blah blah the Trinity blah blah. So I suppose it is suicide, in a sort of ethereal sense (do I mean that word? :/).

Mud:

FlamingXbaby:

That's before all the crucifixion crap.
Now all we have to do is believe in God, yadda yadda.
And I'm really glad.
I could NEVER earn my way into heaven.

Why did the rules change?

This is going to sound like typical "christian" cliche cheesy crap, but that's just about the only way you can explain it.

In the old testiment, one had to sacrifice animals in payment for sinning.

So God sent Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice and now we don't have to do anything but that the sacrifice happened.

Ella falls from grace:

My Religion class was having this discussion a while back:

If euthanasia and suicide are bad, why was it okay for Jesus to do it?

I mean, essentially, Jesus knew he was going to die [I'm talking about what it refers to in the bible...] so why didn't he stop it? If it's a sin to commit suicide, why was it okay for Jesus to do it? I mean, essentially, what he was doing was considered suicide. Aren't we meant to live by his examples? Why is it okay for a man, apparently the son of god, to preach one thing, and then do another? Not that it is any different today in the same Organized Religion.

He didn't really commit suicide, in what you say.

He was going to be killed no matter what he did.

And he didn't change it because he came here to be a sacrifice and to see what it was like on Earth..

But you have an interesting point. I've never heard someone argue that.

Bloodraine:

Obviously haven't though about?.
Ok...well, I guess all that time we spent talking about it in RE doesn't count.

Do you actually have evidence to say he wanted to die?.
If you go and read Mr 15:34, It actually states that he didn't want to die, remember also in gethsemane, how much doubt was going through his mind?. He didn't want to do it in the beginning, but he had to, because God wanted him to. God made the choice to sacrifice him, Jesus had serious doubts. He went through with it in the end (although in the end is debatable) because he knew it was for the greater good. He couldn't have stopped it, anyway. The romans would have crucified him whether he wanted to die or not, and he couldn't have stopped that. Jesus wasn't a deity, he was just a man, without the will of God to stop him being killed he couldn't stop it.

There is also no such thing as Non voluntary suicide, thats actually an oxymoron.

Do you actually have any evidence he was the son of god? Or that he was more then just a man? Or that his mother was a virgin when she gave birth to him? No, no you don't. So don't ask me if I have any proof to back myself up, because you are the one lacking in evidence. The entire faith that you are supporting is lacking in evidence. What you're talking about is pure faith. You are talking about your own, or other peoples, faith that is not universally shared. I was just questioning the morals of yester-year. The rules people apparently follow now, even if they were spread through word of mouth for thousands of years, and just how plauseable they are.
If Jesus was so great and was God in the flesh, why didn't he make it stop? To save us, I'm told. But what good is he to us when he's dead? How can he help us when he's six feet under? You're entire faith has massive, gaping holes in it, but I won't get into that now. I don't have enough time, nor enough energy to get into it.

I know I'm a little late on this, but when ya'll say that He committed non-voluntary suicide because it was God's plan to use him as the ultimate sacrifice, then what would you call the people on the planes who chose to crash in fields rather than buildings on 9/11? That was suicide. They were sacrificing themselves for the good of the rest of us.

Or about armies who go to war? They are sacrificing themselves for our freedom, so does that make them better than us who didn't go down in a plane to save a major building/people or fight for the rights of our countries in wars?

Everything that is "God's Word" was written BY MAN. Whether or not it's true or false is where faith comes in. To say you have faith in the Bible is to say that you have faith in what someone else told you.

Now, I pose this thought to you for contemplation. The 3 most common voices that Schizophrenics hear are God, Satan, and their families. I'm not calling everyone who transcribed the Word of God schizophrenic, I have no way of knowing nor does anyone else, it's just food for thought. All of the people who claimed that God spoke to them were treated as martyrs by their community, and praised, and given a place in religious history, but what about those who claim that God speaks to them now? They are called crazy, and schizophrenic.

I'm not denouncing faith, I believe that there is something, be it a big man in the sky or a ball of energy that created us, I just doubt that everything in the Bible, that you're supposed to know, is fact. I've read it, I've studied sciences, researched it, and written about it.


//EDIT\\ When you talk about how the Word of God was spread verbally for thousands of years before it was written down in what is now known as the Bible, think about it this way. We all played telephone at sleepovers, you start out with something like, "Pandas eat bamboo," and it ends up something like, "Bananas secrete goo." Everybody has to add a little piece of themselves to every great story.

Danielle Ashley.:

Now, I pose this thought to you for contemplation. The 3 most common voices that Schizophrenics hear are God, Satan, and their families. I'm not calling everyone who transcribed the Word of God schizophrenic, I have no way of knowing nor does anyone else, it's just food for thought. All of the people who claimed that God spoke to them were treated as martyrs by their community, and praised, and given a place in religious history, but what about those who claim that God speaks to them now? They are called crazy, and schizophrenic.

I'm not denouncing faith, I believe that there is something, be it a big man in the sky or a ball of energy that created us, I just doubt that everything in the Bible, that you're supposed to know, is fact. I've read it, I've studied sciences, researched it, and written about it.


//EDIT\\ When you talk about how the Word of God was spread verbally for thousands of years before it was written down in what is now known as the Bible, think about it this way. We all played telephone at sleepovers, you start out with something like, "Pandas eat bamboo," and it ends up something like, "Bananas secrete goo." Everybody has to add a little piece of themselves to every great story.

You made a very good point there and I agree with you. There are several exaggerations in the Bible and things like "hearing God's voice" or "being possesed" resemble to much what we nowadays call mental illnesses to be 2 separate things. But I can't just say that there is no higher power, that there is no Creator, that the apparition of life on this planet is something that "just happened". That can't be.

And since everybody's involved in this whole Jesus' sacrifice debate, let me ask you something: God sent Jesus on Earth to sacrifice Him in order for our sins to be forgiven, right? Forgiven by whom? Forgiven by God. So, if He is the one who forgave the sins, why was the sacrifice of His own son necessary?

Danielle Ashley.:

Everything that is "God's Word" was written BY MAN.

EXCELLENT point. I think too many people forget that. Whether or not you believe in God, the Bible was undoubtedly written by man AND translated by man. Man is not perfect and many are known to alter facts slightly to reflect their own opinions and wishes. And everyone makes mistakes in translation, especially something so great and so open to interpretation. Man has used religion to maintain order for hundreds of years, so of course some things got corrupted along the way. This doesn't take away anything from anyone's belief in God, but it should encourage you to question exactly what the Bible says. And not just the Bible: all religious texts are updated, translated and generally fiddled about with. Nothing can be taken as read.

Danielle Ashley.:

Everything that is "God's Word" was written BY MAN.

Exactly my point. How can you live your life based on rules a bunch of shovenistic assholes made up, calling them "God's word." They don't know "God's word." How could they? What makes them so much more special then anyone else in that same faith? Nothing. And that is exactly my point. Why are men in the Catholic church, not just Jesus, but men in general, held with such respect and admiration? Because they made it that way!
If God sees us all as equals, why, someone tell me, are so many individuals singled out? And not just women, but homosexuals and even different coloured people to some extent.
I'd like to know, why only men can become priests and not women? Well, I can answer my own question here. Because men wrote the bible, therefore, they could make it any way they wanted. Who was going to stop them?
You'd think, after 2000 or so years, they'd adapt the bible to fit with society now. Ah, no. Of course not. We want to live in the stone age, and still look down upon women and homosexuals.
There so many holes in that faith, and that is why I despise of it. But hey, I'd be happy to discuss, with anyone who is willing, the pros and cons of Christianity. I'm open to anything.