Vegetarianism/veganism.

CarcinogenCrush:

*rant mode*
People *should* feel guilty for eating meat, people should stop before they take a bite of chicken or steak and think- this is the same as eating my pet dog. Chickens are the most abused animals on this planet- if that what was done to them was done to dogs/cats, it would be ILLEGAL. Cows are hung by their feet and their throats are cut while they are still ALIVE so that the average American can have a hamburger when they could easily eat anything else... that doesn't seem fair to me. I'm vegan, and the thought of eating meat/cheese/animal products in general completely sickens me. A), it's unhealthy- milk, for instance, contains bacteria, hormones, pus, blood. No being from another species would NATURALLY drink from another species!!. B), those animals are tortured. The average pig is as smart as the average three year old. If you want to eat a toddler, go ahead. To me, slaughtering animals and eating them is the same as taking a bite out of your mother or your sibling. You are a murderer, plain and simple, if you eat animal products, whether you kill the animal or not. Everyone knows what these animals go through, but they EAT THEM anyway. It's cannibalism. And consuming milk or other dairy products is exactly the same--- if you say that being vegan/vegetarian is unnatural? Mother cows being pumped full of hormones and giving milk constantly is unnatural!
As for getting sick from being vegan/vegetarian. Vegetarians have lower cholesterol, lower chance of dying from a heart-related disease. I've been vegetarian/vegan for almost a year now, and I am perfectly fine. Milk does not prevent osteoporosis, it causes/contributes to it.
To quote Peta, any way you slice it, it's still flesh.

Okay... I'm done now.

As a fellow vegetarian, I respect your point of view.

However...

It's a good idea to also respect other people's dispositions and points of view.
It's also probably a good idea to not tell people that they "should feel guilty" for eating meat". It seems uncalled for, in my opinion.

Not everyone is going to have the same moral stance as you do.
Not everyone agrees with the vegetarian lifestyle, and that's okay.

Humans have eaten meat for time immemorial. And even though I'm a vegetarian, I admit that readily.
Without meat, I don't believe we would have developed as a human race as much as we have, if that makes sense.
There are actually benefits from eating meat.

I know I sound contradictory to my own diet, because I haven't eaten meat for three years now.
But I don't think it's your place to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with their diet.
You I don't feel it is right for you to tell people, "you SHOULD do this", "you SHOULD do that", because I don't feel that's going to get your message across very positively.

And what you are talking about is PETA propaganda, in my opinion.
I actually, personally, dislike PETA, mainly because that organisation is very notorious for being self-righteous and shoving their propaganda down people's throats.
I don't think there's any reason to be aggressive here.

No one, I don't think, is right or wrong in this discussion.
Meat eaters aren't right, vegetarians aren't right, vegans aren't right.
We all have a different philosophy and perspective about the food we consume.

And I must say, not all meat eaters are uncaring about animals.
A lot of people these days eat "ethical" meat, as in, free range meat.

I'm sorry, but it's vegetarians / vegans like you who make the rest of us look bad.
It's fine that you have an opinion on this, but I personally feel that telling people what they "should" do is not helping your argument.

CarcinogenCrush:

Chickens are the most abused animals on this planet- if that what was done to them was done to dogs/cats, it would be ILLEGAL.

The average pig is as smart as the average three year old. If you want to eat a toddler, go ahead.

To me, slaughtering animals and eating them is the same as taking a bite out of your mother or your sibling. You are a murderer, plain and simple, if you eat animal products, whether you kill the animal or not.

Everyone knows what these animals go through, but they EAT THEM anyway. It's cannibalism. And consuming milk or other dairy products is exactly the same--- if you say that being vegan/vegetarian is unnatural? Mother cows being pumped full of hormones and giving milk constantly is unnatural!

Milk does not prevent osteoporosis, it causes/contributes to it.

1. In a lot of cultures, people do eat cats/dogs, and it's definately not illegal over there, so what makes you think it would be illegal here?
2. The pig thing, I'm sure pigs are smart, but that's no reason to say 'you should go and eat a toddler'.
3. Can I just say, that there are a few cannibals in this world. And even though it's frowned upon by most people, it is still done. So, I don't think that will change peoples views on meat being like biting one of your family member's.
4. I know what animals go through. But I eat meat. Not everyone is able to be a vegetarian or a vegan. I've tried it before, but it's not for me. I make sure my family buys free range eggs and milk from farms where the animals are treated well. We also go to a butchers where the animals are well kept and put down humanely. I do take notice of where my meat comes from, and do my best to make sure it's not from somewhere where animals are treated badly. Just because you eat meat doesn't make you a monster.
My best friend was a vegan, but found it very difficult, and is now a strict vegetarian, and we respect each others differences. It doesn't bother her if I eat meat when I'm out, and if she comes to mine, I'll make sure we have things that she can eat.
5. Milk is a source of calcium that strengthens bones and teeth, many tests have been done to to check this. I'd be quite interested to know how milk helps contriubute to osteoperosis, and where you got the information from.

As Techno Cocaine said above, it's ok to tell your own opinion, but please be carefuly with what you say. You can't tell people what they can/can't do, as not everybody as the same views

^ These days, everything seems to be good for you, and everything seems to be bad for you, so you don't seem to be able to win.
I'm sure milk is bad for you if you drink too much of it, but dairy is also good for you. Like above, it's one of those things that is good and bad.

^the weird thing i find about dairy is that we humans think thats okay for us to a) keep drinking milk after we're babies and b) drink the milk of another animal..
no other animal does...

but also what audio geography pointed out is true, the highest rates of osteoporosis are in western countries who are the highest consumers of milk. It makes you wonder how true those claims about the benefits of milk are...

amity_xo:

^the weird thing i find about dairy is that we humans think thats okay for us to a) keep drinking milk after we're babies and b) drink the milk of another animal..
no other animal does...

but also what audio geography pointed out is true, the highest rates of osteoporosis are in western countries who are the highest consumers of milk. It makes you wonder how true those claims about the benefits of milk are...

If you offered another animal the milk of another animal, then they would probably drink it. Cats drink cows milk. So do dogs.

I'm sure they're not the only animals.

^ Just pointing out though, your not meant to give cat's cows milk. We used to do it with my cat (she wouldn't really drink it anyway), but the Vet said that it's actually not good for them, that's why you should use the packaged one.
Just saying what our Vet said

^ sometimes they do. In some situations, when a baby animal is orphaned, another animal will nurse it, as if it were their own. There's a thing (for want of a better word) where a bitch is nursing her puppies, and a squirrel. It does happen in nature sometimes.

Adding on the the 'western countries have higher rates of steoporosis' thing. while the before statement may be true, western countries also consume higher amounts of things such as fizzy drinks, which sucks calcium out of your bones.

techno cocaine.:

rukan:

All or nothing? I don't know, I've just never heard anyone with THIS argument before. I understand what you mean, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about this issue.

Couldn't put it better myself, thankyou.

--

This issue is not strictly black or white; there are going to be different types of vegetarians and vegans, and they are going to do what suits them. It is kind of ignorant to say something like, "you can't be a vegetarian and still drink milk or eat eggs etc. etc."

I understand the thinking behind it; I understand that it may seem hypocritical, but not everyone is suited to the vegan lifestyle. I personally think if you want to be a vegetarian and still drink milk, eat eggs and cheese etc., then that's your business, and no one should tell you what you can or can't do.

I know that not every one is suited to the vegan lifestyle, and therefore I think that if you try your hardest to be vegan, but you don't succeed, that is better than not even trying at all. I know a lot of people who would like to be vegan, but find it too much work, trying to find suitable food, and clothes, but they try, and therefore I have a lot of respect for them. I think eating dairy produce is less of a bad thing, than say wearing leather, or fur, or animal tested products. Basically, I'm trying to I find it more acceptable to be a vegetarian that drinks milk, than to be a vegetarian that wears fur, because the animal doesn't have to die for the milk, and some dairy farms get their milk in a way that means they don't use too many hormones.

I'm not saying you can't be a vegetarian, and drink milk, I'm saying I can't understand why. It's a personal thing. I can understand not being able to be vegan, but I can't understand the not wanting to try.

Audio Geography.:

I should have specified that I meant adult animals. I mean I'd never heard of animals nursing other baby animals in the wild, but it does seem possible and even natural--but as far as I know, no adult animals in the wild nurse from other animals, because they aren't meant to drink milk past infancy.

yes, but with that argument, you could also say that no other animal has created alternative means of transport, no other animal vaccinates themselves against disease. Humans aren't like every other animal. Other animals with canines eat meat. I'm not meaning to be annoying or pedantic...

techno cocaine.:

I've heard from people who have cats that they are able to drink it sometimes, but not as a substitute for a meal. Other animals can also drink it without ill effects. I'm not trying to purposely go against your vet or anything, but a lot of people give cats milk with out any strange effect on them.

We've had dogs for years that have drunk cows milk, and nothing terrible has happened to them.

But the point is that they don't do it in nature - this has nothing to do with animals in captivity, since humans are not in captivity. If they had the resources in nature, they would not. In nature, after being weaned, animals no longer seek the milk of their mothers - but they could if they wanted to, as the mother would produce milk as long as the offspring sought it.

It's not that it would hurt them either - just that it doesn't occur in nature. Not really a harmful statement, just a fun fact.

What is also fascinating to me is that humans are not born able to digest milk other than that of a human breast - we have to be introduced to it, since our digestive tracts naturally lack the bacteria needed to break down that strain of lactose. That's why some people are lactose-intolerant, and why if you are "dairy-free" (haha) for a long time, you will also experience averse affects after consuming dairy. I have been vegan for 2.5 years and I am lactose intolerant now.

By the way, this is not "Why would you want to be lactose intolerant? it's an advantage to be able to break it down?" Because I chose not to be. I chose, if you will be open enough, to revert to the way my body originally was. Although it wasn't a direct choice - just a side effect of my veganism.

ChipmunkOnKetamine:

yes, but with that argument, you could also say that no other animal has created alternative means of transport, no other animal vaccinates themselves against disease. Humans aren't like every other animal. Other animals with canines eat meat. I'm not meaning to be annoying or pedantic...

You are quite right in that light, yes.

But when we choose to buy milk from a cow, goat, or even (lol) a human (ebay people!), we are robbing the animal's offspring from one of its birthrights. That is why baby cows are fed formula mixtures - to free up their mother's milk for the human that wants it. That hardly seems fair. D:

It is somewhat similar to eating eggs - MANY species eat other species' eggs, but um, if humans are so different from those animals, why would we steal those eggs away? No, they're not fertilized. But that chicken GAVE BIRTH, essentially, went through the pain and also the physical effects of producing the egg, only to have it taken, time and time again, by a species claiming to be more intelligent and empathetic.

But, as I say often, it is TOTALLY your choice to do what you like, and I will respect it all the time. I am just here to present what I know for those who are seeking it, and if that information leads you to make a choice like mine, I may call you a friend.

But you're all my friends anyway. :]

Paolo Nutini:

It is somewhat similar to eating eggs - MANY species eat other species' eggs, but um, if humans are so different from those animals, why would we steal those eggs away? No, they're not fertilized. But that chicken GAVE BIRTH, essentially, went through the pain and also the physical effects of producing the egg, only to have it taken, time and time again, by a species claiming to be more intelligent and empathetic.
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but eggs are like, hen's periods. They are going to lay them anyway. I don't think hens really expect to have all their eggs fertilized, like a woman doesn't expect to have all here eggs fertilized. Then again, I don't know how hen's minds work.