Religion

Alexface.:

What's really made me lose my faith and religion is the hypocritical and inequal aspect of it, and the fact that some of the things that are given to follow and the things that are classed as sins have been carried through into the law nowadays. Gay marriage, for example. In my opinion, and many other people's opinions, there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. But I think that the reason it's made illegal in countries is that it's the religious side of it that's holding the governments back. I have nothing against people who are religious in any way and I'm not saying that people shouldn't be religious. I just think that we shouldn't let it get in the way of law and morality today.

The other thing that lost it for me was that I've grown up to be more of a person who thinks in logic than faith. I often need to see something or have something proven to me, for me to believe it. And if something doesn't make logical sense to me, then I won't really buy it. That's why I don't believe in God, or really many aspects of Christianity anymore.[/size][/font]

That is exactly how I feel as well with religion. It's just the fact that some of them can be very hypocritical is what really irritates me. When I was growing up I was told in sunday school that "God loves everyone." and "Treat everyone exactly how you want to be treated." and to "Love thy neighbor as yourself" but then as you get older those same people who taught you those things would preach about how wrong homosexuals are and blah, blah, blah.

I agree about what you said, how the main reason why gay marriage is looked down upon is because religion is holding the government back, and it really doesn't help much with the fact that most people in America are proclaimed Christians, which there isn't anything wrong with that. It's just the fact that they dominate makes it so things like gay marriage is banned. The whole prop 8 thing was total injustice in my opinion. It's like if you were "no" for gay marriage then you'd be "yes" for prop 8 and if you were "yes" for gay marriage you were a "no" for prop 8. Very confusing. And then with their commercials that targetted children so that it would tug at adult's heart strings. I think a lot of people think that gay marriage is a religious issue, when it shouldn't have anything to do with religion. Religion is a personal choice, and not everyone has the same beliefs. I look at marriage as a civil right. There's nothing wrong with gay people getting married.

And I am also more of a logical thinker. I used to be more spiritual than I am now, and I wasn't as open to things like science, but now I am more interested in those types of things, because i'm not as religious as I once was. I view myself more of agnostic than anything. I don't know...I just see religion as something that's just too restricting for me. I don't like being resticted and to be prohibited to do this or that. I just want to be open-minded and free I guess...

I believe in God, absolutely 100%. I don't really know why, it's just something that I can feel in my hear and soul. I don't know if it's because I was raised Catholic, or what, I just know in my heart that God is there. I don't really care about what other people think in that, I know not everyone has the same belief and that's perfectly fine. What I believe is perfect for me, it doesn't have to be good for everyone else. However I'm not one of those hypocritical crazy conservative Catholics. I'm all for gay marriage, birth control, the right to abortion, and other stuff that is a Catholic no no. I'm also a strong believer in science and logic. Everything in this world is governed by the laws of physics. I'm not sure if I believe that God ever 'interacts' with our world, I tend to be more of a deist.

Both of you just summed up how I feel pretty nicely. I do have a relationship with something that, for want of another term, I call "God." I mean, I talk to it, and I can feel it, and I bargain with it and feel that it helps me out when I need it. I'm not too concerned with exactly what it is though; it could be my own Higher Self, it could be a spirit of sorts, it could be just a collection of energy, I really don't know, and I really don't care.

I consider my relationship with this Being to be very personal, and no organized religion quite covers it - I won't subscribe to any. The rules are too complicated, too antiquated. The rituals are nice, and when I do get to participate in one, I enjoy it. The churches are pretty, and I'll be the first to admit that there is a very positive energy still surrounding this entity Jesus. I think his spirit is empowered by all of the loveliness hurled its way on a daily basis over so many centuries. I've never gotten involved with Islam, but no doubt Mohammed's spirit embodies a similar positiveness.

My family is Jewish, and they refuse to entertain any thought processes other than those, but we're not observant at all. We keep a few holidays a year (basically, this consists of eating some traditional foods together. I don't think that anyone besides my father has been inside a temple since the last bar mitzvah or wedding one of us had to attend.) My family has weird phobias about things like crosses (they view them as discriminatory tools. It's a pretty ignorant thought process, but there's no arguing with them.) We maintain certain traditions, like sitting shivah when someone has passed (it's like a wake, only it's after the funeral rather than before) and superstitiously being careful not to name your child after anyone living. The older generations know some Yiddish terms (it's Russian, Hebrew and Geman combined.) No one has had a Hebrew name since my uncle was given the middle name Asher. He's pushing 70.

Unlike my family, I like to embrace all cultures and ceremonies. That's about all that organized religion offers to me personally. I don't like the way religion is used as means of control. If it weren't for the fact that I am against equal rights for killers and rapists, I would be a complete Liberal. My father is similar, however, he was raised in a different time; he was a small child during WWII and he heard about what was happening to the Jews. He remembers the Cold War and Stalin alot better than I do. My older relatives have reason to hold onto their traditions (and their fears, although I've done a lot of work with my Dad, and have at least gotten him over his irrational fear of all things German.)

To me, it's impossible to be both Liberal as well as a "practicing" anything without running into conflict, as Jinxy outlined very eloquently above. Faraday, do you think that you and I are more Agnostic than our religions of origin? Is it possible to take away some things from the religion that you were born into without actually being it? Maybe we all need new terms!

Deb:

Unlike my family, I like to embrace all cultures and ceremonies. That's about all that organized religion offers to me personally.

I kinda feel the same. My favorite part of freshman year was studying all the different religions. I think Buddhism may have the right way to do things though, because they just seem so much more lax then all the other religions. And for everyone who doesn't believe in God, they don't really have one. Buddha was just a guy who they think had it figured out.

Deb:

To me, it's impossible to be both Liberal as well as a "practicing" anything without running into conflict, as Jinxy outlined very eloquently above. Faraday, do you think that you and I are more Agnostic than our religions of origin? Is it possible to take away some things from the religion that you were born into without actually being it? Maybe we all need new terms!

Totally possible I say. I mean I call myself Catholic, and technically I am a confirmed member of the Catholic church, but I never go to church and I'm not really practicing.
I went on Easter this year, but other then that and sometimes Christmas, I just don't go, and I don't think it's all that necessary for me to go. I wouldn't gain anything from it anyway, simply because I don't listen to what the Priest has to say anyway. (He's a jerk to, the one that was at my church when I was little was sooo much nicer.) I always end up dozing off or something. I think maybe when I'm older I may be able to sit through a church service and get something from it, but until then, I'm sleeping in on Sundays.

East Jesus Nowhere.:

I think a lot of people think that gay marriage is a religious issue, when it shouldn't have anything to do with religion. Religion is a personal choice, and not everyone has the same beliefs. I look at marriage as a civil right.

Though really the entire idea of marriage comes from religion itself. In the beginning of humanity marriage was always a religious thing, no matter what religion you were a part of. Marriage was always connected to the religion and/or god of the people group in which the couple belonged.

Now we have this idea that marriage is a human right. Its not. Marriage is a gift from God, and therefore he is the one who gets to set the standards for what marriage can and cannot be. He makes it clear his standards, and they are simple ones: One man and one woman for life. Those standards arent just about ruling out homosexual marriages, but things like polygamous marriage as well.

Marriage is not, and will never be a human right. It doesnt matter what you believe, what religion you belong to, and if you do not belong to a religion at all.

That was somewhat off topic, but I was responding to your dislike of Christianity because you think that they are denying human rights.

i believe in God . i pray . i read the Bible . that's all what He needs .

The significance of religion in the world is something I find to be very interesting. Like how it correlates to the culture, laws and virtues of a nation.

I also noticed that religion has become a weaker force in Europe. What once was a continent ruled by the church has now leaned towards a more... I guess atheistic look at life. I don't mean individuals but the continent as a whole. Compared to the US at least.

O.K. In practice you might call me a Wiccan, but in theory I've created an entire new religious concept. If you ask a religious leader why there is suffering in the world, they Will either

a. skip over the question
b. say that god, Allah, (whatever the deity is) is punishing people
c. they tell you to fu@# off
d. they say they don't know

I have narrowed down the possibilities into a few short answers

a. there is no god or goddess
b. they enjoy making people suffer
c. if you don't worship them they make you suffer

or there is a theory I have proposed. What if every deity exists and they are constantly in competition for power. Due to the fact that almost ten thousand religions exist, there is a good chance that they may cancel each other out. I have found that sometimes it seems that the extremely devout of any religion get responses to prayers, meditations, etc. What if the deities can only grant such wishes to such people, but the other deities cancel out the ability to us them on the rest of the world. Just a theory I'm working on. I'm still slightly agnostic, yet I do actually worship the Wiccan god and goddess.

xxZalanortxx:

O.K. In practice you might call me a Wiccan, but in theory I've created an entire new religious concept. If you ask a religious leader why there is suffering in the world, they Will either

a. skip over the question
b. say that god, Allah, (whatever the deity is) is punishing people
c. they tell you to fu@# off
d. they say they don't know

Not true at all.

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In Hinduism, suffering is seen as the result of karmic debt owed from a prior incarnation; we suffer through, building up "good karma" to balance out what is, ultimately, our own personal fault.

and

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To Buddhists, life is suffering because we desire; this desire must be extinguished by walking the Eightfold Noble Path of right belief, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right thought, and right meditation.

I have an option E, as a deist would say, god created the world and then abandoned it.
My answering to suffering in the world leans towards a deistic point of view. It's not up to God to solve every problem in the world, it's up to us. People are starving in Africa not because God is punishing them but because no one will help them. Suffering is a result of human actions, we were given free will to use and abuse.

"Suffering is never positively willed by God, but is allowed for our benefit in the same way a father will allow a child to suffer the consequences of his own actions so that the child will grow and learn to listen to his father, or perhaps in the same way that father might allow his child to "suffer through" piano lessons so that, someday, he will be a great pianist."

Quote

I have narrowed down the possibilities into a few short answers

a. there is no god or goddess
b. they enjoy making people suffer
c. if you don't worship them they make you suffer

Or:
D. he/she/it/they don't intervene in the world.
E. he/she/it/they gave humans free will and suffering is brought about by the actions of humans and not a deity.

xxZalanortxx:

What if every deity exists and they are constantly in competition for power.

Oh! That's an interesting theory, especially considering that we don't truly know what these beings that we pray to truly are.

Faraday:

xxZalanortxx:

a. skip over the question
b. say that god, Allah, (whatever the deity is) is punishing people
c. they tell you to fu@# off
d. they say they don't know

Not true at all.

Well, it's a generalization, but you can't say that it doesn't occur. Religious fanatics do tend to have pat responses for everything, as evidenced by the lengthy (and one-sided) arguments that my late husband used to conduct with the Jehovah's Witnesses who came to our door.)

Faraday:

It's not up to God to solve every problem in the world, it's up to us. People are starving in Africa not because God is punishing them but because no one will help them. Suffering is a result of human actions, we were given free will to use and abuse.

Fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, and a fair percentage of religions do preach that all of our actions are judged by the Lord, so you can't exactly absolve Him of responsibility in that case.

Deb:

Faraday:

xxZalanortxx:

a. skip over the question
b. say that god, Allah, (whatever the deity is) is punishing people
c. they tell you to fu@# off
d. they say they don't know

Not true at all.

Well, it's a generalization, but you can't say that it doesn't occur. Religious fanatics do tend to have pat responses for everything, as evidenced by the lengthy (and one-sided) arguments that my late husband used to conduct with the Jehovah's Witnesses who came to our door.)

Yes, but Zalanort seemed to be making out that this happened all the time

Watch the pyramid quotes, guys

Deb:

Well, it's a generalization, but you can't say that it doesn't occur. Religious fanatics do tend to have pat responses for everything, as evidenced by the lengthy (and one-sided) arguments that my late husband used to conduct with the Jehovah's Witnesses who came to our door.)

It's a huge generalization that counts out pretty much every religion but Christianity and Islam. While I agree that believers of a religion tend to have rehearsed responses to questions I was simply pointing out that those are not the only options. Hinduism and Buddism have answers to the suffering question that don't fall under any of the categories on that list.

Quote

Fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, and a fair percentage of religions do preach that all of our actions are judged by the Lord, so you can't exactly absolve Him of responsibility in that case.

Judging peoples actions isn't the same as orchestrating all the bad things that happen though. I believe that God judges people, but not in an 'smiting and sending to hell if you do one little thing wrong' way.

Well my theory actually is what I use to entirely support the idea that a deity doesn't really do anything in our lives. Well sometimes you do find prayers seeming to be answered (I've meditated and prayed to the Great Godess and Horned God and it almost seems like I've actually gotten answers), but it could all just be coincidental. Even if prayers, meditations, chants, etc. seem to be answered, they are always in minor ways. I kind of think that the may be able to effect very devout worshipers, but not the general public, low loyalty followers, or the world. I still am slightly agnostic and know that if I didn't accept the great chance of me being wrong of simply how foolish it would be. I know that some people such as Deb (who stated the deist veiwpoint), may be able to come up with other answers, but I truly love practicing Wicca. When I was baptised I felt weird and stupid, but when I choose to become a Wiccan I felt overjoyed. However, since I believe in a loving god and godess (and a bunch of other ones) I thought that even though they are supposed to represent nature, they wouldn't allow so much violence, hatred, and other negative atributes in our world. After much meditation, deep thinking, and heavy theological research in a large multitudes of faiths, I fouond that almost every religion mentioned other deities, things that coulf be enterpreted as deities, and even references to things almost exactly like other tales in numerous other faiths. I have also looked at ways that science can be thrown into the equation and work. Oh yeah, another thing (I classify this as a theological idea and not a religion. If I here about people converting to a religion of this, the whole concept will be destroyed. I say that you should worship whoever you want, or better yet, just make sure you do the best job you can to make this world a better place while you're still alive. I want this to be something to bring all religiouis viewpoints together.)

Oh my gosh! I'm soooo sorry. I actadnetally said in my last post that Deb was the deist, not Faraday sorry you two

Wow I really need to use spell check more.

Faraday:

It's a huge generalization that counts out pretty much every religion but Christianity and Islam. While I agree that believers of a religion tend to have rehearsed responses to questions I was simply pointing out that those are not the only options. Hinduism and Buddism have answers to the suffering question that don't fall under any of the categories on that list.

Right, but Hinduists and Buddhists don't set out to judge or impose their beliefs upon others, though.

Faraday:

Judging peoples actions isn't the same as orchestrating all the bad things that happen though. I believe that God judges people, but not in an 'smiting and sending to hell if you do one little thing wrong' way.

How can He judge if He is choosing to leave people to their own devices? This logic doesn't make sense to me.

xxZalanortxx:

After much meditation, deep thinking, and heavy theological research in a large multitudes of faiths, I fouond that almost every religion mentioned other deities, things that coulf be enterpreted as deities, and even references to things almost exactly like other tales in numerous other faiths. I have also looked at ways that science can be thrown into the equation and work.

Damie and I watched "Knowing" last night and found ourselves speculating on exactly that. In ancient times, worshippers envisioned the elements as deities. The Hebrews disagreed with this perspective, choosing to believe that there is simply one force for good and another for evil. Could aliens be the true archangels? Will the Armageddon actually be elementally based? There is no right or wrong way of looking at things...until you remove someone's rights for not thinking as you do. This is where organized religion becomes problematic.

I've said this many times before and will continue to say it: theology should have no place in Legislature, period. Our Bill of Rights includes freedom of religion, so therefore, no one Church should have sway over any other.

Ooohhh. Deb what you were just saying is highly similar to the ideas of Cosmicism found in H.P. Lovecrafts writings.